[JDB840]

This spring's project is to redo my suspension. I've almost got my mind set on the Real deal kit from just suspension. Has anymore put this kit on their car? What are you guys experiences or opinons on this or any other suggestions on improving the handling? I want the car to handle way better, i;m not looking at seriously dragging racing it, well an occassional pass here and there. (Thanks eddie for your help already)

Right now the car still has the same 30 year old factory suspension. It doesn't handles very well, as you would imagine. Eventually I would like to put 17in rims all the way around as well.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[R DOGG]

Sorry, I have not put a real deal kit on before but I do plan on purchacing a tubular front K member with air ride suspension that replaces the steering box with a steering rack thus eliminating the tortion bars. The company is called Magnum Force. Like I said I have not yet installed this kit yet but I have read that this is one of the best improvements that you could make to the front end geometry of a tortion bar vehicle. It costs just under $3000.00. But I believe it is money well spent.But if you need to keep your vehicle numbers matching this kit is not for you.

R DOGG ...................... OUT

[christer]

I did a search and found some information. Here it is. //Chris

http://challenger.mpoli.fi/forum/viewto ... =6450#6450

http://challenger.mpoli.fi/forum/viewto ... 6651#16651

http://challenger.mpoli.fi/forum/viewto ... ?p=743#743

[dave-r]

I do plan on purchacing a tubular front K member with air ride suspension that replaces the steering box with a steering rack thus eliminating the tortion bars. The company is called Magnum Force.

Most people know my opinion of these but it is probably worth me stating my personal opinion again.

I do agree that the Mopar steering box is crap. But when adjusted right (in particular the manual steering box) they are not so crap that you should feel the need to spend $3000 to make them slightly better.

Getting rid of the torsion bars is a bad move unless you need to for the headers i.e. big block in an A-Body or tuned length headers in a B/E body Dragster.

They will tell you that the coil set-up is lighter overall (great for Dragsters) but they are hiding the real truth which is the unsprung weight is higher with coils and that means the suspension does not react to the ground as well as it does with torsion bars. So for the street they cannot work as well.
Also most of the coil conversions have no facility for a front sway bar. There is nothing handles worse than a car with no sway bars.

I have a particular beef with the Magnum Force design.
They rely on the inner fender to take the full weight of the car.

Use your head.
The inner fender was built to take the top of the shock absorber only. NOT the full weight of the car. There have been a few incidents where the front suspension has collapsed with this design. At the very least it will stress the front end and create flex in the front of the chassis.

IMHO you should save your $3000 and spend it in other areas. Or even on drink and loose women. Anything in fact other than coil suspension on an otherwise fine MoPar.

But all this is just my opinion. If you really want the thing just do it. It is your car and your money man. I just speak my mind so you can think it through and make your own decision.

[dave-r]

PS. You can still get the Moog offset UCA bushings if you need more caster.

[Eddie]

Dave is right on bout that one! All the weight up high and stressed to the MAX! The magnum force must use a motor plate I believe which means you are gonna break stuff eventually,(transmission castings,water pump housings,clutch linkage problems, body panel seperation and cowl and body cracks), Reilly motorsports sells a better unit for the street called a alterk tion and is boxed and welded,(tig), uses production rubber mounted motor mounts and also uses coil springs also about 3k. My setup is all bolt on, stock O.E.M. type hardware just beefier and better engineered. Nothing is welded, cut, removed relocated ect..I bet I could keep up with those coil sprung "super cars"

[JDB840]

Thanks guys for sharing this information.

So it sounds like the kit I want is the way to go correct! Also assuming I get some sway bars and a different ratio steering box. I'm can't spend 3g's right now wheather the kit was worth it or not. I do have enough for this kit, which I hope is worth it.

[Eddie]

I have never heard anything "bad" about Reilly Motorsports alterktion. I have read and heard many bad things about MagnumForce suspensions. The Magnum force design does place all the load on the thin sheetmetal shock tower area,(they recommend reinforcement). The alterktion places this load on the front frame stub. For Drag Race competion only sure both would work quite well. But for the pothole strewn and irregular road surfaces of the outside world I think Dave is correct in his explanation. I would put the alterktion on my R/T but not the MF design for street use.

[dave-r]

Year that one is much better Eddie. But again, why spend all that money just for R&P steering?

[Eddie]

You are right on bout that one Dave! That's why I "went" with the bolt on stuff. Sure is a lot of money and work for very little gain.

[R DOGG]

Thanks for the advice Dave and Eddie. I checked out the RMS unit and this looks to be a much better design. I wonder if I could completely eliminate the shock tower?

[Eddie]

Then go with the bolt on stuff and forget the Reilly alterk tion. The shock towers are THE reason most people use this design. It eliminates the effective torsion bars for more clearance so that larger oil pans and bigger tube headers can be used. When you reach engine development that exceeds 600+ H.P. then a larger more efficient oiling system becomes imperative, hence the larger oil pan and swinging pickup. These items wont fit a stock K-frame. In the old days the racers would heavily notch the k-member this is unaccepatable for the street. The alterk fastens like the old fashioned k-member, if you "do away" with the shock towers then you arent really changing anything. There is a trade-off torsion bars=low center of gravity very effective design the down side is it takes up space below and around the engine. Shock towers=moves the "springs" up high and places weight of the entire front end on the delicate sheet metal,(which is already thin). It does however open up the area around the engine for exhaust pipe and oil pan clearance. Also I dont think that this approach,(eliminating the coil springs), could be accomplished, at all.

[Eddie]

Then go with the bolt on stuff and forget the Reilly alterk tion. The shock towers are THE reason most people use this design. It eliminates the effective torsion bars for more clearance so that larger oil pans and bigger tube headers can be used. When you reach engine development that exceeds 600+ H.P. then a larger more efficient oiling system becomes imperative, hence the larger oil pan and swinging pickup. These items wont fit a stock K-frame. In the old days the racers would heavily notch the k-member this is unaccepatable for the street. The alterk fastens like the old fashioned k-member, if you "do away" with the shock towers then you arent really changing anything. There is a trade-off torsion bars=low center of gravity very effective design the down side is it takes up space below and around the engine. Shock towers=moves the "springs" up high and places weight of the entire front end on the delicate sheet metal,(which is already thin). It does however open up the area around the engine for exhaust pipe and oil pan clearance. Also I dont think that this approach,(eliminating the coil springs), could be accomplished, at all.

Good Luck whatever you choose, Eddie.

[R DOGG]

The question I should have asked was, does the RMS kit utilize the shock towers? Thanks for all the help Eddie.

[Eddie]

No problem RDOGG, anytime, I am pretty sure that you would have to use the shock towers as I dont see any other way to attach the suspension to the chassis. The RMS kit does use motor mounts or factory insulators as Chrysler calls them. The Magnum force unit I am pretty sure you have to use a motor plate which WILL break things on the street,(vibraton is severe and the chassis and engine are used as stressed members), Which is ideal for launching and drag usage, for the street I wouldnt, some may, but I consider a street car able to do many things not just drag racing. The factory isolates this severe torquing action of the drivetrain with the use of all 3 engine mounts two front one rear,(Chrysler calls it the rear engine mount but its also called a transmission mount), this is "isolated with the help of high durometer rubber bushings). Drag Racers desire little movement in the drivetrain therefore the stiff solid metal mounting points. Why not call Mr. Bill Reilly at RMS? I am sure he could recommend a great setup and will forget more than I will ever know!Also RDOGG see my "thread" on suspension on my R/T and I included a recipe that listed all the suspension parts I utilized on my car. I am VERY happy with the way it handles, yes it's a little stiff and the steering requires effort at low speed but once you take it through the twisties you feel like Francois Cervet or Peter Revson,(my heroes).

[dave-r]

Bills Alterkation thing does not stress the shock mounting on the inner fender as his frame takes the full load.

However make sure of two things.

1. That he can supply a front sway bar that works.

2. That the engine sump does not get in the way of the steering rack.

[R DOGG]

Thanks for all the help Eddie and Dave. It is great info!

[Eddie]

You are welcome RDOGG, let us know how it turns out, and good luck!

[JDB840]

Also RDOGG see my "thread" on suspension on my R/T and I included a recipe that listed all the suspension parts I utilized on my car. I am VERY happy with the way it handles,

Eddie, i was trying to search this and couldn't find it. i remember seeing it awhile back though. Could you post the link to that site. I really like your set up.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[Eddie]

Go to the post "torsion Bar selection" and it's there! If you cant find out what you want let me know and I will post a "recipe" of my parts and suppliers used to get what you want. The only thing I refused to put on was subframe connectors the bolt on ones are not that good and the countoured ones still require cutting and welding,(the best), and I am not willing to cut an original shaker car. But wish I had them cause this is the ROOT of body stiffness. Properly installed it makes a HUGE difference as members of this board can attest to. Hope this helps. Eddie

[JDB840]

Is there a difference in sway bars between the 2 vendors (firm feel, PST, and just suspension) other than price?

I'm thinking about changing my mind on the real deal kit, because I can upgrade my suspension and get everything I need for about the same price.
I'm thinking about polygraphite bushing kit, shockes, torsion bars, leaf springs, steering box and adjustable shackes. Is there something I might be missing on this list?

[Eddie]

Save the money on the KYB shocks and use your own,(I went with the Edelbrock IAS shocks in classic style which is gray and has an older look to it), the KYB are ok but for 100.00 more you can get a MUCH better damper. I really Lust for KONIS/Penske but hey 500-600 more was a little to much even for me! I dont think there is a big difference in sway bars but I went with Dick Ross's recommendation at Firm Feel,(these guys RoadRace in the seattle pacific northwest area and have a lot of RR experience), they use the T/A style not the B-Body style which goes below the differential like a H.D. Truck, not ideal! Also I would use the special lower control arm stud made for poly bushings as this has a machined register in it to secure the bushing, and the stock OEM stud does not. Lastly, I used the Schumacher Torque strap,(adjustable preload), to control torque reaction. One other thing are you using the dual cutout rear valance.(R/T)? If so you wont be able to use the H.D. shackles with out bending outward the RV. it needs about 3/4 clearance. I was not willing to do this so a new set of O.E.M. shackles with poly bushings was used.

[dave-r]

Yes Eddie is right in that a sway bar is a sway bar no matter who makes them but the BIG difference is how the rear bar fits.

I had to hang mine off the axle because there was nothing else available when I bought mine. But hanging off the chassis is better because it lowers the unsprung weight on the rear suspension.