[Adrian Worman]

Had a prob today with the 440 in me Challenger. Got a misfire, found a dead cylinder with a wet plug, so whipped off the valve cover to find a pushrod loose floppin all over the place. 2nd time its done it, so decided to upgrade the rocker gear, any recommendations please
Stock 452 heads with very mild work, Comp Cams springs and Xtreme Energy hydraulic cam, lifter and timing set, stock (MP) pushrods.
Ta, Ade

[dave-r]

I prefer the Hughes Engines rockers and grooved shafts. Maily because of the quality, good geometry, and resonable price.

However there are better rockers out there if you can pay a little more. Eddie has got a good handle on the best stuff. Have a look at his thread on his 500 inch engine.

[Adrian Worman]

Ta Dave, been looking at the 440Source kit, good value but i keep hearing questionable quality when their name comes up. I'll check out his thread, cheers

[Eddie]

Here is a pic of my rocker nakedness! (Mock-Up photo). Adrian, have you found out why it's doing this? Did it pierce thru the rocker body? I think your springs are around 275/300 over the nose? Are the pushrods 5/16? The MoPar Perf. pushrods arent the best quality, just a slight step above stock!

[Eddie]

This is Andy Finbeiners article on B-Engine rocker arm assemblies. I highly suggest his book on B/RB MoPar Big blocks. Very informative. His results with the RAS assembly is what prompted me to contact and then order them from RAS. BUT, when I recieved them they had damage on the hardened washers and a nick/gouge in the thick walled rocker shafts. I sent them back and they were returned in excellent condition and there was NO CHARGE for shipping or anything else I also ordered their ARP STUD KIT for the alloy heads and I have near 400 Lbs. over the nose with my PAC valve springs at max lift studs are a good idea and with this much force and fine threads it wasnt a problem mounting the rockers/shafts over them tightening gradually at diffrent points until they were all seated evenly . The geometry is outstanding. I didnt have to change a thing. Rocker 'Mid-Lift' Geometry is critical for longevity, valve guide wear and, valve seat seal. The rocker tip valve stem interface should be centered at this point. Also if the rocker is too short or too long this can cause problems. Most of the time, when a stock or near stock lift cam anything under .550 lift it shoudnt be a problem,, bolt em on and go after a careful check. It's when you get over this lift that things need to be checked out carefully. Hope this article helps and I hate to say it hughes engines alloy arms are nice, but I dont like alloy arms on a street engine, if I did use them I would select either his rockers or T&D or Jesel. Adrian, there are hundreds of alluminum alloys, some are downright weak, some are aircraft aerospace quality. But they simply dont have the ductility of steel. There are some OEM engines that use them and they last for thousands of miles. It's just a matter of personal preference. If I were building a modified engine for competition usage sure! I would also pick the Comp Cams Chrome-Moly units in a heartbeat but man, like have those prices went thru the roof on the MoPar shaft rocker system! Almost as much as the RAS assembly. I paid 850.00 for the complete kit including ARP studs and their billet steel holddowns. The RAS rocker bodies are Stainless Steel, bronze bushed, heavy thick walled rocker shafts,, banana grooved, unique oiling reservoir for the pushrod point. Very Heavy duty, 5/32 radius ball to ball pushrods required unless you change the adjusters to ball style.

[Eddie]

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[Eddie]

6 Scary stuff huh!!

[Eddie]

7 I think the 440 source rockers are in this category or the above page! Although, I have NO experience with them. I like to buy the best stuff when it comes to valvetrain hardware.

[Eddie]

8 Andy wrote a nice write-up on the RAS asemblies. It IS a bit mis-leading and NOT the author's fault. I called and spoke with Gary at RAS. Real knowledgeable guy! He told me the 440 MoPar rockers are available and I sent him a pic of my RAS equipped engine at his request. I told him if they made an Offset Port rocker with around .550 offset it would fill the bill for more racers using max-wedge heads or larger. They would only need to make intake rockers to re-tro fit the stock offset shafts so production/engineering costs would be minimal. Dont know if they are going to do this as most drag racers use alluminum alloys,,endurance freaks like me would use them though!!!

[Eddie]

Sorry for the long winded reply,, I should also mention, I would like to someday buy a set of CNC'd Indy EZ 275 CC heads and my RAS assembly should bolt on no problem and be plenty strong enough for 400-500 pound springs depending upon the cam selection.

[Eddie]

FYI the tensile strength of the 440 source rockers are 185 (MPa) the yield strength is 76(MPa) The RAS rockers are 620 ten.(MPa) the yield is 345 (MPa) Quite a difference!

[dave-r]

Fantastic reply Eddie!

[Adrian Worman]

Thats incredible Eddie!!!!!!!! gonna take me a few days to digest all that information. I had a look at the asssenbly and I can see a couple of rockers with a different pattern stamping to the rest. They seem to be a sturdier looking stamping, also are as loose as hell on the shaft. Luckily I got a 440 motor home in the yard at work so I whipped the whole rocker shaft assy off today and swapped that one in. The pushrods are MP ones. Try it on Sunday

[Eddie]

It sounds kinda like the rocker bodies are perhaps ovaled? Do you have a Vernier Caliper Handy? If so take the rocker body and "Mic" the inside hole and rotate the Caliper or rocker body 90 degrees and take another measurement. They should be very close to equal. If not the rocker body is 'ovalled' I would also "mic" the shaft. If they are stock walled shafts and they are tightened over the 25 ft. lbs.(I believe), they will bend. I would also check the pushrods for straightness--some guys like to roll them on a plate of glass--I like to chuck em up in a drill press and you WILL know if they are bent.Whatever the reason, keep us informed, Good Luck!--- I love to hear/diagnose/ learn about valvetrain maladies

[Adrian Worman]

Eddie I robbed the rocker gear as a whole assembly from a 440 I've got lying around at work. Seems to have sorted the problem, looked like a very worn stamped steel arm was causing the trouble. Got a set of Crane Gold roller rockers coming to me from a club member over here, will let you know when I get them

[Eddie]

Eddie I robbed the rocker gear as a whole assembly from a 440 I've got lying around at work. Seems to have sorted the problem, looked like a very worn stamped steel arm was causing the trouble. Got a set of Crane Gold roller rockers coming to me from a club member over here, will let you know when I get them

Cool, glad to hear you found the problem! Let us know how the Crane's work out. Are you gonna use the stamped steel holdowns? They may or may not rub against the rocker body, check it out carefully, if you have enough space between the rockers, you might be able to use a hardened steel shim between the rocker body and the hold downs. The problem sometimes is the soft alluminum rocker body rubs against the hard steel hold downs and wears a groove into them. The shim prevents this. As long as the roller tip is centered over the valve stem you should be fine.

[Adrian Worman]

I can trial assembly them mate, check for clearances and make sure I'm happy before I use them. How much preload will i need to put on the lifters?

[Eddie]

I can trial assembly them mate, check for clearances and make sure I'm happy before I use them. How much preload will i need to put on the lifters?

If the hydraulic lifters are the regular type,(Special oil metered Racing hyd. lifters can be set with as little as .005 to .010 pre-load) I set them 1/2 turn past seated with the lifter on the base of the lobe. The method I use can be used on any engine. I like to use my fingers and try and gently turn the pushrod as I tighten the adjuster For Hydraulic lifters: I adjust each cylinder at a time. Set the EXHAUST pre-load
1/2 turn past seated,(once the everything is seated the pushrod will be difficult to turn with your hand, but be careful the lifter spring will easily compress) which is approx. .018 as each thread on the typical adjuster is .036 for one full turn, When the INTAKE valve is at Max Lift. Set the INTAKE when the Exhaust valve STARTS TO OPEN also a 1/2 turn past seated. Make sure the adjusters are tight. A high quality Hex head wrench to 'hold' the adjuster and a 7/16 12 point wrench to lock the adjuster's 12 point nut are necessary. Also, be very careful when tightening the adjusters, they can break easily because most are hardened and cant take any twisting motion or slip of the wrench. I broke one on my stroker but luckily had a spare. If you have a radius gauge I would also check the pushrods radius. It should be 5/32 if not, the pushrods might not fit the adjusters. 5/32 radius is what most use however. Hope this helps

[Adrian Worman]

Thanks Eddie, seems a very straightforward method. I always twist the pushrode in my fingers as well, just to feel if they've all got the same tension at no lift, probably a little silly but I see it as a good way of inspecting the valvetrain

[Adrian Worman]

Got a full set of Crane Gold rockers and shims turn up in the post today, will assemble them all on the bench and onto the shafts and see what they're like

[Adrian Worman]

Got these out and inspected them as soon as I got off my bike , Crane gold rollers, 1.5 ratio, marked 64-1.50L(and R) below that is F-06. The rockers have an adjusting screw suitable only for a cup and ball pushrod, all shims and springs are present. One thing I did'nt realize (a bit naive of me) is that they don't fit the standard Mopar rocker shaft. I checked on the Crane website for technical instruction, I found pt.no. 64750L/R that match my parts closest and it specifies their own shafts be used. A little dissapointed but I can wait a little while for the shafts and pushrods to come I guess

[Eddie]

Sorry Adrian, I should have told you that most alloy rockers have a different shaft diameter than the stock shaft. This is why I like to use rocker bodies, adjusters, shafts and hold downs all from the same manufacturer. You can mix and match components at your own risk. The alloy rocker bodies have to be much thicker than the steel units because they are weaker in that area than a steel part. The shafts are also thicker to handle the increased spring loads. I would also get an assortment of hardened shims for the shaft . These hardened shims fit between the hold downs and the rocker body,(NOT between the rocker bodies) it prevents the rocker body being grooved and damaged as the rocker cycles against the hold downs. The shims come in varying thicknessses from .005 to .015. Are you going to order new pushrods? You might want to get 3/8 diameter ball to ball ended ones. On stock head intake ports it shouldnt need to be clearanced. This would have enough strength to hold up to future strong springs, wild cam ectt. The Comp Cams pushrod checkers that are adjustable are very nice to have they thread out over an inch in travel! Also a Vernier caliper that is 7-10 long is necessary to order the right length ones. I also added .030 to the overall pushrod length after I measured with the checking rod on the lifter at the base lobe and 1 thread showing below the rocker body on the adjuster with NO slack and the lifter spring NOT compressed. It takes a bit of a 'feel' to get it right. Re-Check again and it should be the same.

[Adrian Worman]

No probs Eddie, should do me homework Yeah, I gotta get new pushrods cos these Crane units have a ball adjuster on them so require a cup and ball type pushrod. I may as well order all the matching rocker shafts and pushrods from Summit and be safe eh?
Just seen a pair of Eddy Perf heads on a British site for half its retail cost, perfect to drop them Crane's onto

[Eddie]

Oh OK, I see that you must use the cup/ball style. I was thinking the other way around. Yeah, as long as they are Chrome-Moly units they would give you no problems from here on. It's actually the adjusters that control what type of pushrod you use. Most of the aftermarket rockers use a 5/32 Radiused pushrod end but not all. Make sure the pushrod end matches the radius of the cup/adjuster,,Crane will let you know. Let us see a pic when you are done Ade. Thats a great deal on the Edds Heads! You would get a bit more torque and a nice top end charge! The closed chambers, I asssume, would give you a bit more compression too! And you would have about 40 Lbs. taken off the nose up high!

[Adrian Worman]

I e-mailed Crane earlier today and they've replied to me, they make a pushrod specifically for RB engines, hyd. lifter, stock shaft geometry, suitable for their own adj. roller rocker. They gave me part no. 64641-16, it looks right at least. Just gotta get some shafts and I'm there!
Yeah, those heads look a good deal, I need 'em open chamber cos I've got those KB quench dome pistons tho', I'm just waiting for a reply from the vendor to see if they are suitable. Hope so, all that stuff will make a good bolt on package

[Adrian Worman]

Just had a nice result, a pair of open chamber Eddys coming my way along with a set of Crane shafts and pushrods, all for less than a grand, nice
Think I'm gonna install the rocker gear and pushrods onto the iron heads to start with, while I asssemble all the associated parts to install the alum heads, need to check header fit as well, should make for a good set up tho', well pleased
Must check the Crane website for instructions on how to get the rockers onto the shafts, looks like freezing and heating are in order, should please Carol when I hijack her oven and freezer