[Hans (72challenger)]

I will help you remenber it Dave. Well no, not, I want to keep the 1,5sec headstart this summer. (at the Nats & Germany Dave?) Just remember I only have a little screaming 340 when I drive a side your 440!

I know the KB pistons has the big relef, but I don't have these. My 340 has flat top TRW forged pistons. And also with the 2.05" valves fitted to the X-heads I didn't want to choose for to much lift. But next time... (like the mildest max.vel.solid with 1.6 ratio; no, a 1.5 then I can keep the existing Sharps' roller rockers)

The .528 has a duration of 241@.050 so it's not that long. "...with much smaller duration so you get good vacuum, torque, idle quality etc." I thought we didn't like a good idle; didn't it have to sound rough??

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Well I like a lumpy idle Hans but not everyone does. People keep asking me "what's wrong with your car man". I suppose they are not used to a car shaking and rocking from side to side.

[Hans (72challenger)]

The more lumpy the better the sound is if you ask me Dave so I agree. Let the people think "what's wrong" till you floor it and leave the "fast & furious" look-a-likes into smoke! Watch them when they see the car idling with the hood popped up; this makes the shaking even worse.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

I was trying out an old untidy FWD 500 inch Cadilac convertible once and when you revved that thing the body rocked well to the side with the torque. Lovely! I used to fancy putting a FWD 500inch engine like this into the back of a small Suzuki van. You get funny ideas like this when you are young.

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

Hi Dave,

You've got me thinking about 1.6:1 roller rockers now. Do they require any machining to the heads, etc, or are they basically a bolt- in?

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Bolt on. But you need new pushrods as well to fit the adjusters.

I have found out a bit more about them since.

Alloy ones like I have are fine for most applications. However if you use something that puts a hell of a strain on the valvetrain (like a roller cam or VERY high pressure valve springs) you are better off with steel rockers (NOT the pressed steel type like the factory).

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

Blimey Dave that was quick! Thanks for the info.

I went for the upgrade as discussed further up the thread. 800cfm double pumper sitting in the garage with some other goodies at the moment, waiting for the Hughes cam to arrive. Turns out they stopped dealing with non- US credit cards at the end of last year, which meant paying by bank transfer. So many forms!

Hope to have the whole lot in and running by mid- May for the Classic American RWYB. Here's hoping.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

New security regs on cards means that it is sometimes tricky to order stuff in another country if the total is over a certain amount. My last Summit order went through ok because I split it into two orders. My overdrive however had to be on a bank transfer. That meant the wife found how much it really cost!!

The alloy roller tip rockers that Huges sells look to be the same as the ones I bought from Indy Cylinder head. I am very happy with them. I don't believe for one moment that you need a roller bearing on the rocker shaft like some big money 'experts' will tell you.

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

I'm thinking that if I'm going to fit aftermarket roller rockers, best time is while the cam's going in so the engine only gets torn down once. I didn't realise Hughes did them, that makes things a lot easier. They seem like an excellent Company to deal with, apart from the bit where they get you in trouble with the other half. Mine packs a mean right hand, but I can still outrun her.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

That is what I always forget. Mine is left handed. She just dummies with the right. Catches me every time.

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

Footnote:-
For anyone considering going the Hughes Engines route, they sent me their replacement for the HE3038 (not shown on their website yet). Details are: HEH3237
Duration Intake 232 Deg @.050"
Duration Exhaust 237 Deg @.050"
lift with 1.5 rockers
Intake .540"
Exhaust.548"

In short, more lift for a minor increase in duration.
I got an excellent service, once the money transfer was sorted out, and the cam was delivered to my door (West Midlands, UK)in 3 days.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Wow. That is a pretty good spec. Your 440 should make over 500hp with that cam. Depending on how good your heads are of course.

(Message edited by roppa440 on May 20, 2003)

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

I just realised another thing. That is more lift than the Hughes cam I am using with 238/244 duration! They must be getting even faster lift rates these days. It gets better and better!

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

Whoe! That's heartening news. Sounds like I might be able to miss 13's and jump straight to 12 second runs, which was my original target for the car. Still not racing you though, I hear Linda's a bit handy on the tree!

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

You are going to have to do a fair bit of carb tuning to get it running right on the street though. I have that covered in threads on this board. You will also need a 3000 rpm stall convertor.

[Jeff Brown (Jeff)]

"I hear Linda's a bit handy on the tree!"
I can vouch for that! I hope to surprise them this year though.

[Jeff Brown (Jeff)]

I plumbed for the Crower cam, purely because it was running good numbers on a Crower before the roller went in!
The roller is now history!

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Err. Her going fast has nothing to do with the bloke that screwed the car together then?

My excuse is that I am always testing the car when I am driving it so I am not even trying to cut a fine light. As long as it is green I don't care. The few occasions i have tried hard I have either lost traction and had to back off or had problems with fuel delivery.

Every dog has his day though and I will be trying to go faster than Linda this year despite me carrying 30lbs more weight than her!

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

Just to make things interesting, I'm changing up to an 800DP carb at the same time as swapping the cam. The plan is to put the new carb on first and get it running right, to baseline the engine before installing the new cam.

I'll be reading your carb tuning threads VERY carefully over the next few weeks, but upfront I know I'll have to wind the idle up to between 900-1100rpm (at least) to stop it stalling at lights. Is it worth me investing in a Holley jetting kit too? I want to pick up a couple of overlooked items from Summit (cam bearings and timing chain), so another (final) order's going in anyway.

My converter is a Fairbanks with a 2400rpm stall, recently reconditioned by Duncan. With my limited grasp of converters, I think that means I'll come off the line fairly soft, but then pick up as the rpm comes into the torque curve? Will it also make for grim street driving, with the stall this low?

Lastly, do we use 1 or 3 bolt timing chains? Any particular brands give good results?

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Get your timing chain from the same source as your cam and you can't go wrong?

It is pointless setting up the carb before fitting the cam because you will have to do it all again. The cam will change all the air/fuel requirements.

Turning the idle speed up to stop it stalling is what people that don't know how to tune carbs do!

You may have to increase the idle speed slightly but that depends on how much torque and actual stall speed you have. Mine is set at 900rpm but it is a slightly bigger duration cam.

The cam supplier will state what stall converter you need. I used a "2800" stall but when you stuck it in gear with your foot on the brake it was pulling the revs down to 600 and it was hard to keep it still in traffic as it was trying to drive off. Also the revs built up slower when on the track.

Changing to the 3k-3.5k stall speed meant it idles ok now in gear and just needs a tiny bit of throttle to pull away. It pulls away harder now too.

I cannot stress enough how everything on an engine has to match everything else. Carbs, intake, heads, cam, compression, cylinder volume, headers, exhaust, convertor, rear gears. They all have to match each other. Whe that is right the car is right and it is faster and drives better.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Carb tuning links to read on here.

http://www.challenger440.pwp.blueyonder. co.uk/cgi-bin/disc/show.cgi?tpc=6&post=1 713#POST1713

http://www.challenger440.pwp.blueyonder. co.uk/cgi-bin/disc/show.cgi?tpc=6&post=3 463#POST3463

http://www.challenger440.pwp.blueyonder. co.uk/cgi-bin/disc/show.cgi?tpc=6&post=4 281#POST4281

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

Just back from a weeks hols. Sound advice Dave, and thank you very much for the links (I'll be printing the lot).

The aim with this car was always to get it into the high -12's and then drive home from the strip. I think I'm on the right track, but need to keep your advice about matching components firmly in the front of my mind. I may try and run it this season with the current converter, funds are running a bit thin now, and I want to hold a bit back unless I find any problems when the lid comes off the engine.

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

Just had a horrible thought. Due to fit the cam, and hopefully carb, this weekend,with one week to go before the Nats. How much run- in does a Hughes cam require before I can use the motor in anger?

I feel a lap of Britain coming on....

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

On first fire up give it 20mins @ 2000-3000rpm. Then you are ready to go.

[Hans Buijnink (72challeng]

But let it cool down after these 20mins! The best is to just wait a night before starting it again to be safe.

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

Thanks Dave/ Hans. Phew, major relief. I was halfway convinced I was looking at running it in for a 1000 miles, followed by an oilchange. Not very conducive to a bit of WOT action. I'll leave it to sit overnight as you suggest Hans. Then I have to start on the digital ignition.

All this will be finished before the Nats, and work fine first time. Amen.

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

The cam has gone in. I love the way it idles now, but....

Took the car out for a run to try and get the feel of it before the Nats. The electric fans came on, stayed on and flatened the battery. I can think of three causes:-

1- The engine wasn't really hot, but the thermostat on the fans has gone faulty, or needs adjusting.
2- I took the opportunity to fit a new waterpump while everything was off the engine. It's rated at 30% improved over stock, and works by trapping the water flow behind the impeller. The thermostat in the engine is still stock. Could this be impeding the flow of water?
3- I've put the cam in wrong. Having said that, it starts fine, runs ok, although I need to do a load of work with the new carb jetting, doesn't cut out, and jump started straight away from hot.

Any pointers gratefully received.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

The thermostat could be faulty because they often are. But you say it ran your battery flat? While the car was running? You need a lot of current loss to do that if the charging system is working. Sounds like a short somewhere or a faulty relay.

[Tim Ellison (Tim)]

Sorry Dave should have clarified. I think the fans were on about ten minutes before I stopped. They kept running for about another 10 minutes after I shut the car off, until they wound the battery flat. The other point I should have mentioned is that the temp guage in the car has been awol for a while (reads full tilt all the time), so I can't see for sure if the engine is really overheating or not. However, when I got the jumpers out it fired straight up again. I'm guessing if it was really that hot it would have struggled to start?

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Sounds like you have a couple of wires crossed there Tim causing the gauge to get 12 volts and shorting the battery to chassis. Check your wiring and check for short circuits with a meter.

The fan(s) can be wired to the battery so they keep going after you shut off but really they shouldn't. You should wire them to a switched live so that they switch off when you turn the engine off. But the battery should keep them going for quite a while without going flat.

You need an auto electrician mate.