CAM INSTALLED WRONG???? • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **73challengerguy** » 15 Jul 2008 18:53

HEY DAVE....JUST WONDERIGN WHAT U THOUGHT ABOUT ALL THIS.....DON AT FBO JUST TALKED TO ME ABOUT SENDING MY DIZZZY TO HIM TO RECURVE IT...THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A SMART MOVE.......BUT........I CALLED MY CAM MAKER AND THEY TOLD ME THAT MY HYDRAULIC ROLLER CAM HAS 4 DEGREES BUILT RIGHT INTO IT......MY LOBE SEPERATION IS 110.......WITH A 114 EXHAUST CENTERLINE AND 106 INTAKE CENTERLINE......TOLD ME THAT THE CAM MUST BE INSTALLED AT 0.....STOCK POSITION.....I ASKED THEM IF MY ENGINE BUILDER WOULDNT KNOW THAT AND DEGREED IT MORE ON TOP OF THE 4 .....WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.....AND DON AT FBO BACKED IT UP..........HOT CONDITION AND DETONATION......DON SAID TOO MUCH CYL PRESSURE........WOULD HAVE TO RUN ALCOHOL TO KEEP IT COOL......NO GOOD ON PUMP GAS ESPECIALLY..........THESE ARE MY EXACT CONDITIONS.............I DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE TO THINK.......I WAS BLAMING IT ALL ON THE MECHANICAL DIZZY......NOW IM NOT SO SURE.........I HAD THIS DIZZY IN ANOTHER MILDER 440 FOR YEARS.....AND NEVER MELTED IT DOWN OR HAD ANY PROBLEMS WHILE USING IT....THATS WHY I DIDNT UNDERSTAND WHY I WOULD HAVE TROUBLE NOW WITH IT IN THIS MOTOR............WOW WHAT A MESS...........IM READY TO FREAK....

by **dave-r** » 15 Jul 2008 21:24

If the cam was degreed it does not matter how much advance it has built in. When you degree a cam you match it to the valve opening and closing times marked on the cam card.

Check with your engine builder though.

Don sometimes talks bollocks even though he is VERY experienced.

by **RedRaven** » 15 Jul 2008 23:11

dave-r wrote:
Don sometimes talks bollocks even though he is VERY experienced.

Classic Robbo...blunt as a sledgehammer!!! :s024:

by **Jon** » 16 Jul 2008 4:26

Steady, take some time and figure it all out. Worst thing is to go off half cocked and mess up the motor or your wallet.

If you have to check the cam then follow the manufacturers directions as Dave said. It's not a big deal maybe opening the timing cover if it needs a rework.

Hey Wayne, what's a Robbo? :s006:

by **Eddie** » 16 Jul 2008 4:32

I bet his engine builder used a standard non adjustable double roller timing set and installed it straight up or dot to dot. This way if everything where 'perfect' machining wise it might be close to the correct installed centerline which was 114 degrees or 4 degrees of advance built into the that number if installed on that 114 centerline. Either way Dave is right, it shouldnt affect the way the engine 'runs'. At least not to the extent of the problems he is having. He may lose a little power depending on how the cam installed centerline is in reltionship to the crankshaft but how could that affect the spark timing/delivery.

by **dave-r** » 16 Jul 2008 7:56

A few degrees either way just "rocks" the power curve a bit.

Advancing the camshaft reduces maximum power a bit but increases low rpm torque. Retarding the camshaft increases maximum power slightly at the loss of low rpm torque. Usually cam manufactures add around 3 degrees advance into the cam so you can install it "straight up" without the use of offset keyways etc.

A mate of mine was having probles with his engine combo and I took 3 degrees off the 4 degrees advance. So that left it 1 degree advanced.

Don when on a great length about how "retarding" the camshaft would do this and that and that was why it would not run right. Nothing to do with all the mis-matched parts the guy had and a Demon carb that runs rich without 20 degrees initial then. :roll:

by **73challengerguy** » 16 Jul 2008 13:59

well the problem guys is my engine builder did this in 2001 ....its taken that long for me to do this project...soooo.....his memory or mine isnt the best......i didnt give him too much info....and he told me he probably put it in at zero.......cuase he said these newer cams have 3 or 4 degrees put in........(mine cam with 4 degrees....and he didnt know that) so im feel better but not 100% sure yet.....wiat and see what don does with my dizzy........i guess.....im nervous cause he didnt want me going hydro roller.......he;s a flat tappet guy.......so he doesnt have much exsperience with these cams.......he put a steel dizzy gear in my motor too....and we were lucky to catch it....and replace it with a bronze one......wuold chewed that cam right up...so my confidence level with him and this combo isnt all that great.......

by **dave-r** » 16 Jul 2008 15:41

There is NOTHING wrong with your cam. Forget it. You just need the advance curve sorted out and you are good to go.

Try to chill out. It will come right.

by **73challengerguy** » 16 Jul 2008 15:56

i know dave.....its hard to chill....been workin on the car since 01......been frustrating to say the least......i jut have bad luck sometimes and i dont want to hangrnade this motor over something stupid....i appreciate the positive words though... :mrgreen:

....still cant get it to run, even with the new old style factory dizzy......i seem to have a intermittent spark problem now......the rotors turning when i try to start it......i checked my msd.....its g00d.....my carb spraying fuel in the front venturi's....but when i pull a plug its dry as a bone......???.......so now i cant even drive it to get break ing miles.......while dons tuning my mech dizzy.......its weird....ive been talkin to air fuel eddie....neither one of us can figure out whats happening.....

by **RedRaven** » 16 Jul 2008 16:10

Jon wrote:
Hey Wayne, what's a Robbo?

Its a grumpy old man from Newcastle...work that one out John!!! :thumbsup:

by **73challengerguy** » 16 Jul 2008 16:54

dave back to the cam thing....what concerned me was why the headers were getting so hot so quickly.....i didnt even have time to set the timing and they were red .......that boggles me.......setting the dizzy at roughly....20 intial , then trying to rev it too 3 grand to set the overall 34 degrees.....and bingo....red headers!!!...that cant be good......could that all be done by that mech dizzy?.... didnt seem to matter where i set the intial....10 to 12 or 18 to 20......by the time i could get around the car they were red ....so of course i shut it down......worries me.....then a plug check and there not white....but theres dentonation going on a few of the plugs

by **Jon** » 16 Jul 2008 19:10

Just a shot, did you change timing covers or dampners? I know small blocks have both left and right side timing makings depending on the years.

by **RedRaven** » 16 Jul 2008 19:27

Sorry for highjackin your thread 73!! :thumbsup:

Hope the cam gets sorted, the lads will see you right!! :thumbsup:

by **73challengerguy** » 16 Jul 2008 19:36

i bought the 4oo block from a freind.....400 are bb's.....so im assuming that that timing cover is the same as far as markings???.......if my engine builder changed it i dont know about it......im using a fluid dampner from summitt.....suppose to be a good one...it was 4oo beans!...lol
good suggestion and i could see where that could be a problem....if it was changed

by **dave-r** » 16 Jul 2008 20:51

Hot headers are usually a sign of not enough timing, too lean a mixture, of a very rich mixture.

Don't worry about them getting red hot. They will come to no harm. Get the timing right and then get the carb mixture right.

If you keep looking for problems you will get no where.

by **73challengerguy** » 16 Jul 2008 21:16

KNOW I AGREE DAVE BUT IT SCARES ME TO DEATH TO SEE THAT....I COULDNT MAKE MYSELF CONTINUE ON SETTING THE TIMING WITH IT GLOWING ALMOST SEE THROUGH...... :tears:

......NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE IN MY 40 YEARS SO I THOUGHT I WAS REALLY HURTING IT..............DIZZY OFF TO FBO TODAY.....WE'LL SEE.....BUT I GOT TO GET IN STARTED BEFORE ANYTHING THATS FOR SURE

by **dave-r** » 17 Jul 2008 7:55

One thing you might want to consider is fitting an oxygen sensor in the exhaust, just after one of the header collectors, and fit a rich/lean gauge.

That will allow you to see exactly how rich or lean the engine is.

Keep an eye on the plugs in the meantime.

by **Eddie** » 17 Jul 2008 10:32

Dave is dead on again. Kinda like this setup Jeff. :thumbsup:

It's an LM-1 meter and standard equipment on the SuperFlow Dyno Jet we test cars on. It's very accurate and will test Lambda readings from 9:1 to 15:1 AFR from Alcohol to gasoline. It is sensitive to lead and ethylene glycol,(Anti-Freeze or Coolant and Lead from leaded race fuel which is loaded with the stuff).

by **Eddie** » 17 Jul 2008 10:34

Yeah the exhaust needs polished! :lol:

by **Eddie** » 17 Jul 2008 10:43

The meter can be 'plugged' in in less than 5 minutes and you are on-line taking Air Fuel readings as the engine sees it. The meter cost 349.00. is a complete kit with software and PC connectors. I usually average around 12.9-13.1 AFR with the engine fully warmed up. I might gain a bit of power with a high Fuel count but it runs very good the way it is and doesnt stumble at all upon accelration and starts very easily. I'm leaving it alone!

by **Eddie** » 17 Jul 2008 11:05

another of the whole kit.

by **dave-r** » 17 Jul 2008 11:31

The is the expensive version you have Eddie. :wink2:

It can be done a lot cheaper than that.

Does that one record the mixture over time Eddie?
I would like a system that did that because when on the strip it is impossible to watch air/fuel ratio and not crash as a result. :lol:

With my cheaper and less sensitive meter I felt the car ran better around 13:1 rather than the 12.5:1 people say is the best ratio for power.

by **Eddie** » 17 Jul 2008 16:51

dave-r wrote:The is the expensive version you have Eddie.

It can be done a lot cheaper than that.

Does that one record the mixture over time Eddie?
I would like a system that did that because when on the strip it is impossible to watch air/fuel ratio and not crash as a result.

With my cheaper and less sensitive meter I felt the car ran better around 13:1 rather than the 12.5:1 people say is the best ratio for power.

Yes it's not cheap at 350 bills, but it can record for up to 44 minutes of running time! Then you'll also have the necessary connectors to download it on your PC with the conditions you ran at that time, it would be simple to plot a race tune that gave you the best times/speed. Plus we use that exact model at school and it's easy to use and almost foolproof. :thumbsup:

BTW, it seems that the 13.1 ratio or a little either way makes for a good tune! If all else fails you can use that tool laying on the ground next to the car. :lol:

by **dave-r** » 17 Jul 2008 17:38

airfuelEddie wrote: If all else fails you can use that tool laying on the ground next to the car.

I am way ahead of you with my little 2.2lb friend. No namby pamby plastic hammers for me! :lol:

by **73challengerguy** » 17 Jul 2008 18:07

yeah i see what ur saying....just dont have 3 4 hundred extra laying around at this present time......stilll trying to pay credit cards off from the build.....ALOT...of them :s005:

.......i am watching the plugs though....there not white or lean looking at all.....biggest thing that scared me was the denonation...on a few....and a few specles of aluminum.....not liking that at all........that could be from when i ran her up to 5 grand with that mech dizzy....advanceing like hell to though.....not sure when it happened but it happened....not cool on new motor with only 100 or so miles on it.....

by **dave-r** » 17 Jul 2008 18:58

I think I have asked you this before but you don't run it up to 5K while stationary do you?
If so I would stop doing that if I were you. Don't go over 4k for more than a second or two.

You can get a air fuel gauge + sensor for as little as £136.00 You can do it cheaper if you rob the sensor from a used car.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

by **73challengerguy** » 17 Jul 2008 19:06

no dave i havent......i meant when i first started to drive it i took it very slow.....only up to 3 3500 rpm.....then slowy as more miles, i ran it to 4500 and the max i ever ran it was 5000 then i heard it denonating...so i immediatly backed out of it.....this is before i knew i had a advance curve problem......trying to set the timing, i reved it to 3 even like everyone told me too.......... but even at that i glowed the header....only on the pass side too??........yeah ill look into what ur saying...thanks....