first firing

by **MLMFLCN** » 28 Sep 2007 1:29

Getting ready to fire my newly rebuilt 440 this weekend. Any and all tips are appreciated.

Have 6 quarts of Brad Penn, break in oil. Have a MP piece to prime the pump. Have a tach and oil pressure gauge mounted under the hood.

Any other advice would be appreciated. Want to make sure it fires and I break it in after a year of work to get to this point.

Thanks as always.

by **dave-r** » 28 Sep 2007 9:12

Are the correct additives in that oil? i.e. moly or zinc to protect the cam?

by **dave-r** » 28 Sep 2007 9:20

Don't forget that the pump rotates anti-clockwise!

If you have the engine at TDC you will need to rotate the crank a bit to line up the oilways so that oil can get up to the rocker gear. Or just pour oil over them before you start which is all I do. As long as you have pressure after priming and everything wet with oil it shouldn't be a problem.

Squirt fuel into the primary bowl and a bit down into the intake before you start.

by **dave-r** » 28 Sep 2007 9:25

I always drill a hole behind #1 spark terminal on the distributor so I can see for sure where the rotor is in relation with it. You don't want to be struggling getting the engine to fire.

by **Eddie** » 28 Sep 2007 13:11

MLMFLCN wrote:Getting ready to fire my newly rebuilt 440 this weekend. Any and all tips are appreciated.

Have 6 quarts of Brad Penn, break in oil. Have a MP piece to prime the pump. Have a tach and oil pressure gauge mounted under the hood.

Any other advice would be appreciated. Want to make sure it fires and I break it in after a year of work to get to this point.

Thanks as always.

Follow Daves advice, and let us know what happens! Any way you could make a vid and post it? Congrats you must be very excited! :thumbsup:

BTW, one thing I dont know if you or Dave mentioned it to you but it's pretty important to rev the engine at 2500 RPM's for at least 15 Minutes. DO NOT ALLOW the engine to idle if you can keep from it. You are trying to establish a wear pattern on the bottom of the lobes top of the lifter area,(cam lobe interface), this keeps the lifters spinning. Another thing is ensure you have plenty of coolant in the radiator and fuel in the tank. You only want to do this break-in once. Good Luck, Eddie :V8:

by **dave-r** » 28 Sep 2007 13:57

Good point on the lifters Eddie. For this reason you don't put cam lube on the lifter sides or bores. Just on the faces. You only put light oil on the lifter bores and when installing the lifters make sure that when you pick one up by hand it falls straight back down when you let go.
The lifters MUST be allowed to spin freely.

by **fbernard** » 28 Sep 2007 15:35

My last bit of advice.
Since you're going for 20 minutes at 2500 (I spent those 20 minutes accelerating between 2000 and 2500), your engine WILL overheat (revving at 2500 RPM with the car standing and no air circulating through the radiator core).

If you have a BIG household electric fan, put it in front of the car, so that it can blow towards the radiator.

Have some water bottles ready (with a small hole in the bottle caps), or better, a garden hose.

You need a friend for this. He will spray the radiator core with water to maintain engine temp below 200°F.

by **Eddie** » 28 Sep 2007 18:31

Good point Fabian, forgot about the fan/cooling! A large type fan will definitely help, as well as spraying a mist of water in the rad core!! :thumbsup:

by **MLMFLCN** » 29 Sep 2007 2:35

It fired!!!!!! :thumbsup:

Got pretty hot in the first 10 minutes or so, had to shut it down. Loaded in more coolant, and fired again. Number 7 header pipe was red hot after about 7 minutes or so, shut down again. Changing carb out tomorrow, and will finish breaking in.

Some electrical gremlins to work at (i.e. - ignition switch, positive battery cable, etc. Nothing too major.

Thanks for all the help guys, I could not have done this without this website. Hope to show you the car in person some time. Will try to post some short video.

by **MLMFLCN** » 29 Sep 2007 2:53

Okay, went to say goodnight to the car, noticed antifreeze under the driver's side. Looked like it was coming from the plug, but inside plug was dry and light tan. I used pipe dope on the header bolts, should I pull them and use teflon tape instead? I know I have to drain the radiator a ways, any other thoughts?

Well, nothing is perfect the first time, right??? :tears:

by **dave-r** » 29 Sep 2007 10:46

I just use gasket sealer on my header bolts.

by **Jon** » 29 Sep 2007 14:17

Glad to hear your got her fired up. A rewarding moment for sure.

You mentioned the header on #7 being red hot. That seems a little odd. Have you rechecked the valve clearances. Is this the same cylinder the antifreeze is leaking from?

by **dave-r** » 29 Sep 2007 15:29

Hot exhaust usually means very lean or very rich (unburnt fuel in the header). But it would be very odd if it was just the one cylinder.

by **MLMFLCN** » 29 Sep 2007 15:30

Actually, #5 was the leaky culprit. When you say valve clearance, you are talking valve lash, right? I have a hydraulic cam, so should I relash to zero prior to firing again?

The carb I have is old, and not rebuilt. The drivers side was "splashing" in as opposed to the passenger which was a finer mist. I was assuming that the #7 was running lean. Bought a new carb today.

Pulled the plug on #5 where the leak was, and it was tan and white. I will pull #7 here and see what it looks like. If it is a lean situation, what would the plug look like?

Thanks for the tips.

by **dave-r** » 29 Sep 2007 16:10

If #7 was lean the plug will be white rather than tan.

Maintain the correct pre-load on the lifters. 40 thou being ideal.

by **RedRaven** » 29 Sep 2007 17:55

Well once again Im bamboozled by the technical end of this discussion but it sounds great, how long before shes fully broken in do you rekon lads??

by **Eddie** » 29 Sep 2007 18:57

It's fine, most likely. :wink:

That first few minutes will either wipe the cam, or perform as it should. Bet that cylinder was running lean, the porcelain insulator part of the plug should be tan and dry which is ideal. A lean condition will elevate the temp and that plug will be lightly tan or white which is bad, and one cylinder bank was probably not getting the required fuel,(1,3,5,7), or the drivers side of the engine. I wouldn't mess with the valve pre-load if you already pre-set it once,(3/4-1 turn on the adjuster@base of cam, ususally does it), fire it back up, monitor the temp, it should run cooler with the new carb. Are you sure the exhaust manifold fasteners are tightened?

by **Eddie** » 29 Sep 2007 19:01

RedRaven wrote:Well once again Im bamboozled by the technical end of this discussion but it sounds great, how long before shes fully broken in do you rekon lads??

Once he gets a good run in time. Another 10-15 minutes perhaps, change the oil and filter, then it's ready for some road time. A good long cruise combined with some high speed blasts would be perfect for it!(not redline blasts), that comes on the next road cruise! :mrgreen:

by **Eddie** » 29 Sep 2007 19:05

dave-r wrote:Are the correct additives in that oil? i.e. moly or zinc to protect the cam?

Some guys I know swear by that stuff Dave! It's green I think. Supposedly it contains the old recipe of high pressure zinc, moly, sulphur ect additive package like they used in the old flat tappet days. Remember mushroom lifters Dave? At one time they were "trick"

by **MLMFLCN** » 29 Sep 2007 20:25

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It did run cooler, still had some hot spots on the headers this time, but temp was right at 180. Not just one bank. Once I dropped the idle below 2000, hot spots went away. Idled at 1,000 prior to turning off for about 30 seconds, oil pressure was around 50 yet. Is this still sufficient?

Thanks for the tips on the valves, what you described is what I did. I am draining the oil tonight and looking for "issues". Rest of the car is not ready for the road yet, but maybe later this fall. :frown:

Carb seemed to perform better. I set timing at 34 degrees at 2500, is this dialed in correctly?

One of my header bolts was leaking, I think that was all. How do you drain the block to fix?

The oil I used was Brad Penn (i.e. - "Green"). My engine builder (Nick Wilson at Compu Flow) swears by it. He is really good and reasonable with costs. Here in Medina, Ohio. He is strictly a Mopar guy.

by **Eddie** » 29 Sep 2007 20:38

MLMFLCN wrote:
It did run cooler, still had some hot spots on the headers this time, but temp was right at 180. Not just one bank. Once I dropped the idle below 2000, hot spots went away. Idled at 1,000 prior to turning off for about 30 seconds, oil pressure was around 50 yet. Is this still sufficient?

Thanks for the tips on the valves, what you described is what I did. I am draining the oil tonight and looking for "issues". Rest of the car is not ready for the road yet, but maybe later this fall.

Carb seemed to perform better. I set timing at 34 degrees at 2500, is this dialed in correctly?

One of my header bolts was leaking, I think that was all. How do you drain the block to fix?

The oil I used was Brad Penn (i.e. - "Green"). My engine builder (Nick Wilson at Compu Flow) swears by it. He is really good and reasonable with costs. Here in Medina, Ohio. He is strictly a Mopar guy.

All sounds great! The timing is correct, the oil pressure perfect! 180 is very good on the temp. you can first get most of the coolant out of the block on the passenger side of the block there is a 3/8 square drain plug there. I would replace it with a good quality brass petcock like on your radiator lower tank, this way you can drain the block or at least down to that point which will prevent the coolant from running out of the heads, so you can facilitate that repair on the bolt thats leaking. You are over the hard part/stressful part, congrats! Now you can 'tune' it to your and the engines liking! Nick@Compu-flow has helped me in the past. he will freely give gret advice/knowledge, just stay away from Ken lazzari@Indy cylinder Head. He is a real piece,(Of fecal matter). No Joke You will hardly EVER hear me dis anyone or their ride! Not my style! Eddie

by **dave-r** » 30 Sep 2007 7:20

You want 34 degrees @ 3000 rpm and an initial timing of 14 degrees.

I cannot get that drain plug out of my block. Oh how I have tried!

So I just remove the bottom hose to get most of it out. Then I would remove the rearmost header bolts (or all of them if you suspect they may leak) and jack the front of the car up high to allow the water trapped in the heads to drain out of the rear bolt holes.
That should do it.

by **Eddie** » 30 Sep 2007 11:23

dave-r wrote:You want 34 degrees @ 3000 rpm and an initial timing of 14 degrees.

I cannot get that drain plug out of my block. Oh how I have tried!

So I just remove the bottom hose to get most of it out. Then I would remove the rearmost header bolts (or all of them if you suspect they may leak) and jack the front of the car up high to allow the water trapped in the heads to drain out of the rear bolt holes.
That should do it.

Yep, that little plug can be a "bear" a torch and penetrating oil is sometimes what it takes to get em out. Of course being assembled and inside the engine bay is easier said than done. :frown:

by **dave-r** » 30 Sep 2007 13:14

airfuelEddie wrote: Yep, that little plug can be a "bear" a torch and penetrating oil is sometimes what it takes to get em out.

Been there, tried that. Twice when the engine was out as well. I was putting so much weight on I was frightened I was going to crack the block. :lol:

Every tool i have tried has either slipped off or broke.

by **Eddie** » 30 Sep 2007 13:31

Sounds like it was "fused" by corrosion. Yeah, it's not worth the risk to crack the block in that area! Then you would have much bigger problems! I wonder how big the leak is? If it's very small I would re-torque the manifold and see if it clears up. Sometimes those surfaces arent perfectly flat and re-torquing helps to seal it all up. Of, course nothing is usually that easy!

by **MLMFLCN** » 30 Sep 2007 15:52

Only the one is leaking. I will try to retorque and see if that does the trick. It is a small leak.

By the way, what grade/viscosity/brand oil do you both run on a regular basis? I broke the engine in with straight 30 weight, and had 75 - 85 lbs at above 2,000 / 2,500, and around 50 at idle (for a few seconds to hear the lump

)

Also, I broke the engine in with open headers (I am sure my neighbors appreciated that), any issues to look for once I bolt up the exhaust? I am thinking that the carb will need some fine tuning, but I am going to try to find a dyno for that and let a professional dial her in.

Thanks again for all the help, it has been a rewarding weekend.

by **Eddie** » 30 Sep 2007 16:05

Amsoil Synthetic 20W-50 and Amsoil Pao1 oil filter. Engine was broke in on Shell Rotella Diesel Oil 15W-40,(old formula), no oil supplements and K&N Oil filter. I have since changed to Amsoil on all my vehicles. Learn to read sparkplugs. This will aid you tremedously in your pursuit for a razor sharp tune! Again Congrats on your Challenger and it's only going to get better and thanks for posting, we all learn together!! :thumbsup:

by **dave-r** » 30 Sep 2007 17:24

I found a rich/lean gauge with oxygen sensor screwed into the exhaust just behind one header collector makes tuning EASY. :thumbsup:

by **Jon** » 30 Sep 2007 21:39

Well, where do we get one Dave.

Wouldn't you want to be able to check both sides? So, one would need to drill and weld a nut to each of the collectors?

Glad to hear everything worked out MLMFLCN. BTW; what do your call letters mean?

by **MLMFLCN** » 30 Sep 2007 22:10

Stands for Millenium Falcon, because when my wife first saw it (after I bought it, of course) she said something like "...look at that hunk of junk!!!" :wink:

Re: first firing