Torque and Horsepower Theory • 2 • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **dave-r** » 20 Aug 2007 14:40

This article is particulaly interesting if you are thinking of stroking an engine. But is also gives insight into the effects of stroke and rod length on breathing and power.

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/rod-tech-c.htm

by **Eddie** » 20 Aug 2007 19:53

Thanks Dave. This is also a great source of knowledge. From the "master" himself John Kasse. :thumbsup:

by **Eddie** » 20 Aug 2007 19:59

by **Eddie** » 20 Aug 2007 20:00

by **Eddie** » 20 Aug 2007 20:02

We MoPar people need more intake manifold developement technology. The Chevies have a much broader selection of plenum sizes even "adjustable" designs that change the plenum area. :nod:

by **dave-r** » 10 Nov 2007 20:53

Well this blows a lot of the established theory out of the window.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... index.html

by **dave-r** » 13 Dec 2007 20:34

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... index.html

by **Eddie** » 13 Dec 2007 21:23

Thanks Dave. One of the best technical books I have ever read was Dave Vizards small block Chevy Cylinder heads book. What ever he prints I read. I have the utmost respect for the man! :thumbsup:

Great info. I am 'targeting 11.2 Comp. ratio on my build with flat tops and quench closed chambers with.035-.055 clearance,(piston to head). E-85 as fuel it's cheaper tolerates compression cylinder pressure better than fossil based fuels and burns cleaner,(reduced carbon reduces octane demand). But it's not 100% yet on the E-85. I havent researched it enough. like how corrosive is it to internal components, primarily aluminum. I'll be using alloy heads, bronze guides, bronze rocker bushings, 2618 alloy pistons, ect. so how does that alcohol have an affect on those components? BTW, it would let me access the UK site. :frown:

by **dave-r** » 14 Dec 2007 9:08

I have deleted that link now Eddie. I didn't realise that non-members can't download it.

Alcohol is a solvent. It washes oil off all the parts. Not a good thing.
If you watch an alcohol powered dragster in the pits after a run they have to strip the engine, change the oil, and clean all the parts because they run really rich and the unburnt alcohol gets in the oil and bearings.

by **Eddie** » 14 Dec 2007 14:28

So do you think the E-85 idea is a bad one? The 'idea' of a Pro-Charger has me intrigued a bit. If you can run a higher cylinder pressure engine with it without detonation,... but the solvent aspect has me thinking the other way now. :frown:

Yes, you're expnanation is logical and credible because I know for a fact that the internals on most duel fuel engines have anodized piston crowns and exhaust valves due to the higher heat and possible corrosiveness(?). maybe 92-94 Octane(Rom) is the way to go. I am still in the planning stages but have recieved my block, rockers, valve covers and bearings,(Coated).

by **fal308** » 14 Dec 2007 15:52

I forget if this engine is destined as a DD or weekend warrior but have you given any thought to additional injection setups? Water or methanol? A buddy of mine several years back ran a 600+cid '82 Camaro as a weekend warrior with water injection.That allowed it to be (barely) streetable.

by **Eddie** » 14 Dec 2007 20:04

Thanks for the input Barc. I was planning on a Street Engine with ungodly torque and enough grunt for pulling decently at the higher engine speeds this plant will be capable of. I thought if I could build this thing to run dual fuel like gasoline and E-85 I would be ahead of the game in increasing the comp ratio without boosters or race fuel. I really dont know enough about alcohol based fuels with the exception of what Dave mentioned. It's corrosiveness and it's tendency to 'creep' into the oil and bearings due to it's solvent like nature. I think it also burns much hotter than gasoline. BTW, the engine will have a'target' 11.0 to 1 comp. ratio. I plan on smoothing any sharp edges in the chamber/ piston top, coating the piston tops with TechLine and possibly the valves faces. The engine when completed will be sold. Then my ultimate engine project will ensue and it will have crossflow heads :wink2:

by **fal308** » 15 Dec 2007 15:18

Will you be able to build to optimum performance for both fuels? I wonder if E85 has the same timing curve and fuel curve as gas? What with the computers in vehicles nowadays you never know exactly what they're controlling. I should imagine there's a sensor that can tell whether gas or E85 is being burned and adjust accordingly, if needed.
Another thing is that E85 would probably need a bigger fuel line, pump etc to make the same power comparable to gas due to it's less than optimal burn. You'd need more E85 to reach gas power. Don't forget also the other ethanol blends that are coming out (E20)

by jr » 15 Dec 2007 17:00

There's some E85 stuff that might help on Megasquirt website.

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

by **Eddie** » 15 Dec 2007 19:31

fal308 wrote:Will you be able to build to optimum performance for both fuels? I wonder if E85 has the same timing curve and fuel curve as gas? What with the computers in vehicles nowadays you never know exactly what they're controlling. I should imagine there's a sensor that can tell whether gas or E85 is being burned and adjust accordingly, if needed.
Another thing is that E85 would probably need a bigger fuel line, pump etc to make the same power comparable to gas due to it's less than optimal burn. You'd need more E85 to reach gas power. Don't forget also the other ethanol blends that are coming out (E20)

I'm still researching it Barc. With JR's excellent post,(I really appreciate that JR), I know that the performance aftermarket is 'catering' to flex fuel alcohol based fuels by offering E-85 ready carburetors like Pro-Max has done and Quick Fuel among others. The timing and EGT parameters could be 'easily' controlled by a fuel injection system, which I may/may not do according to the expense. I still have a lot of leeway left because this winter/spring will concentrate on the shortblock, then when funds allow, the heads and valvetrain, followed by induction/ignition. If money was no object it would get a F.I. system without hesitation! I like that MegaSquirtII Microprocessor! It can control all parameters and is only 85.00,(Upgrade over the CPU), I might have to e-mail them and see what additional data they can provide.

by **Eddie** » 15 Dec 2007 19:53

Hmm, using their calculator, it would take a TBI,(2 injector) 257 gallons per hour flow rate! A MPI system,(8 injector), is 'only' 64 GPH, still quite a bit considering most injectors flow 24, 36, 42,(extreme outputs) for gas so having said all this, I am going to need a huge fuel system that is anodized completely or Stainless Steel lined to survive the corrosiveness. However the benefit I keep seeing are the clean burn and high comp ratios and it's fairly cheap but the fueling stations are not consistent with the ratio of alcohol to gas, thats why the O.E.M. uses the fuel ratio sensors I assume. Without the sensors, and using different ratios would induce lean conditions. And we all know what happens to lean high out put engines!

by **Eddie** » 15 Dec 2007 20:06

I have surmised that a carb is out of the question with a flex fuel engine. I guess the carbs available are for those that have access to stable ratio fuel. Fuel that WILL be 85% alcohol and 15% gas all the time. Thats not going to happen at the pumps where I get my fuel from. I think they are a Race only type of carb. :frown:

by **fal308** » 15 Dec 2007 23:04

Yeah the Megasquirt is great. A couple of guys on my RX-7 board have built Megasquirt systems and they love them. http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.htmlis the Megasquirt website. FAQ-http://www.megasquirt.info/index.html

A couple other sites that may be of interest (though they are RX-7 leaning) for engine management;
http://www.microtechefi.com/
http://www.racetep.com/haltech.html
http://www.autronic.com/index.html

And completely unrelated but sounds like a blast;
http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/

by **Eddie** » 16 Dec 2007 3:55

Thanks Barc. Pretty interesting stuff.

by **Eddie** » 16 Dec 2007 15:33

fal308 wrote:Yeah the Megasquirt is great. A couple of guys on my RX-7 board have built Megasquirt systems and they love them. http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.htmlis the Megasquirt website. FAQ-http://www.megasquirt.info/index.html

A couple other sites that may be of interest (though they are RX-7 leaning) for engine management;
http://www.microtechefi.com/
http://www.racetep.com/haltech.html
http://www.autronic.com/index.html

And completely unrelated but sounds like a blast;
http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/

That race sounds like a blast! Too bad we dont all live closer. A running Nissan or other Asian type car maybe a Neon would be keen. 50.00 entry if no liscense. We could recruit Dave to drive the beast, Wayne and us as crew! Christer to do the specs, Jack T and Barry to de-code the damn thing and predict when we die or crash, Jr to tell us we are doing it all wrong, Jon does the paperwork and tech, Danny puts in his 2 cents, Rick saves our butts, Ian sends us rare unobtainable parts, David gives us some beer money, Botari 123 and Pat on medical trauma standby, Jimiboy laughs at us all, (Yeah I'm bored 6" of snow 45 mph winds 12 degrees F) :biggrin:

(you could lose your car to be ceremoniously destroyed at anytime and probably will!)

by **ianandjess** » 17 Dec 2007 13:37

you just never know whats lurking in my shed eddie
cheers ian

by **Eddie** » 17 Dec 2007 14:14

ianandjess wrote:you just never know whats lurking in my shed eddie
cheers ian

by **dave-r** » 11 Feb 2010 11:34

Handy FREE software.

http://mopar.uuuq.com/