I can't find the timing marks! • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **Mike Brown (Mikebmopar)** » 23 Aug 2003 0:22

I cannot find the timing marks on my 340. I look on the driver's side. I can see the mark on the orange flywheel, but there is no scale or anything that I can see! Is there anyone out there that can help me? I got the electronic ingition installed. Found TDC on cylinder 1. When I put the new distributor on I lined it up like the old one with the vacuum canister pointing to the passenger side. I haven't got it started yet, but the battery (I believe some of you might call it an accumulator) was pretty low so I am charging it now. Thought I would seek some knowledge while I am waiting on the battery. Thanks!

by **Glenn Jackson (Henner)** » 23 Aug 2003 19:22

silly question!! when you were at tdc was it on the compression stroke? I have a 71 and on the water pump cover on the drivers side is where the gauge is.

by **Tony Miller (Owner4)** » 23 Aug 2003 20:43

I agree with Glenn. you could have your dist. 180 degrees out causing a couple of puffs, spats, and few short rumbles, but won't start. double check comp. stroke before you roach your starter and add to the frustration.

by **Jack T (Jackt)** » 23 Aug 2003 22:40

Look for the timing scale on the passenger side. If it is there, your timing chain cover is from 1969 or earlier. In 1970, the casting was changed as were the balancers and the marks were moved to the driver's side. The newer casting is available from MOPAR Performance, but the older one has been discontinued. Also, when you found top dead center, did you make sure that both valves were closed? If they were, then you were at the TDC preceding the power stroke and you should then make certain that the rotor is pointing at the distributor cap terminal for cylinder one. The direction the distributor body is facing is important, but the rotor and shaft can easily be 180 degrees out of sync even if the body is correct.

by **Mike Brown (Mikebmopar)** » 24 Aug 2003 3:03

Thanks! I will check. The engine is not the original so I will check. The alternator is in the way on the passenger side, but I will dig around there and see.

I admit, I was checking TDC by just using a probe to note when the cylinder was at the top of its stroke and the rotor was where it was before. This may be another silly question, but will I need a new valve cover gasket? I went to get one the other day, but they had to order it and I was trying to get the car running to enjoy the weather! :-)

Thanks a lot for the advice. I'll keep you posted. I really appreciate all the good information on this site.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 24 Aug 2003 15:35

The rubberised type you can re-use many times. There is a solid rubber type that you can re-use as many times as you like as it seems to be pretty indestructable.
The cork gaskets are not as good and can only be re-used a few times.

by **Glenn Jackson (Henner)** » 25 Aug 2003 0:51

you can pull the number one plug and put your thumb over the hole then bump the starter over untill you feel compression then turn the engine over by hand untill tdc. by hand I mean useing a socket and breaker bar on the center bolt that holds the harmonic balencer on. No need to pull the valve cover this way.

by **Mike Brown (Mikebmopar)** » 25 Aug 2003 12:47

Frustration abounds here at the Brown house. I did everything to the letter and it still will not start. I followed Dave's instructions (even opening the valve cover). I have put on the Mopar Performance Electronic ingniton kit, I replaced the coil with an Accel coil. The only thing not replaced was the external resistor as the parts store did not have one. I worked the distributor around a 1/4 inch at a time to see if that would do it. Came close a couple times, but it just woudn't catch.

I then rotated the distibutor 180 degrees (pulled up the distibutor and turned the rotor 180) Nothing. Re-read the instructions a couple more times and checked all the connections. Checked to make sure I was getting spark. Yes.

I am starting to think that maybe it is in the fuel delivery / carb now and not in the distributor. Any suggestions? Still cannot find any timing guide on the engine anywhere. I think it may have been knocked off or something. Thanks for any advice you might have.

by **Christer (Christer)** » 25 Aug 2003 14:31

Fuel delivery problems (Three suggestions):
1) Check if the fuel filter has gas in it.
2) Loosen the end of the fuel hose (near the carburator)and place the end of the hose in can (or a bottle). While a friend of yours crank the engine, fuel should come out of the hose (BE VERY CAREFUL SO THAT ANY SPARK DOESN´T GET NEAR THE FUEL.)
3) Squirt in some fuel to the intake manifold direct through the carburator! (This will do the trick if if the fuel hose is empty).

Ignition timing problems: While a friend of yours is trying to start the car you simply twist the distributor until the engine starts to run.
Good luck, Mike!

by **Mike Brown (Mikebmopar)** » 25 Aug 2003 19:43

Good tips. I did try moving the distributor around while Nancy tried to start it. But if it is not getting fuel then it doesn't matter! I will check the fuel tonight. Thanks!

BTW, does anyone know of a manufacturer of a clear fuel filter? I had one on it, but it was so dirty that I needed a new one and could only find one with a solid case.

by **Mike Brown (Mikebmopar)** » 26 Aug 2003 3:27

Thanks for the advice Christer. I tried your suggestions and I am getting no fuel to the carb. How much fuel should I pour into the carb to test? Am I basically priming the pump to get the fuel flowing again?

it is curious that this has occurred due to the fact that the car was running two weeks ago when my friend dropped the screw into the distributor and started me on this electrical odyssey! I never would have thought that the fuel would quit flowing....

by **Christer (Christer)** » 26 Aug 2003 8:17

Have you changed the fuel filter recently? The fuel filters use to have an arrow pointing in the direction of the flow. Check if that is the case.

There is also a possibility that there is something wrong with the filter. How about checking if you have any flow before the filter (or without the filter).

I would pour in something like 2dl of fuel (a bit less than a half of a beer....), BUT I would not do that in your case. I did that when my car run out of gas once. The fuel pump is not very good in puming air (at least at low rpm), but thanks to some fuel in the manifold (thanks to that, the engine did run for some seconds), the fuel pump managed to fill up the fuel lines.

I assume that your fuel lines already are filled with fuel (that would make the operation above unnecessary). Another three suggestions: Check if you really have enough fuel in the tank. Is there any hidden fuel filter under the car with a lot of dirt in it? Is the fuel pump in good condition? Hope this helps.

by **Mike Brown (Mikebmopar)** » 26 Aug 2003 12:03

Sounds good. I did check below the fuel filter and was not getting any fuel. The fuel filter is about a month old. I found some Mopar clear fuel filters in my Year One catalog so I am going to go over to the Dodge dealer today and get a couple. Thanks for the good advice!

by **Mike Brown (Mikebmopar)** » 26 Aug 2003 23:44

Greetings all from wonderful Indiana!! The beast lives. I got the car started! Thanks Christer, the fuel idea was just the trick. I was able to drive the car down to the gas station and back to fill the tank. It sounded like it was running very rich and the idle was fast.

Since I have no timing marks (no one who has looked at my engine can find the scale), I have an idea on how I can get it running to a point that I can take it to a mechanic to fine tune the motor.

If the car is idling, I could turn the distributor counter-clockwise and note where the rpms start to drop, the turn it clockwise until the rpms start to drop and then tighten down the distributor in the middle of that range?

Be easy on me, I am a novice to this engine tuning stuff. I have changed a lot of oil and brakes, but that's about it!

I appreciate all your advice and help to get my car back on the road!

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 27 Aug 2003 8:02

That sounds as good as anything. No matter what you do it will be guess work until you can change the timing cover for one with the timing marks on.

by **Glenn Jackson (Henner)** » 27 Aug 2003 11:22

question Dave can he use a vacum gauge to get his timming set off the side of the carb where there is always vacum??? SEt the air fuel screws first then adjust the timming.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 27 Aug 2003 13:42

Nope. I don't see how that would work.

Let me think.
OK.
I would take the valve cover off on the drivers side. Turn the engine until the exhaust valve opens. Keep going clockwise until the exhaust closes and the intake opens. Try to find the exact place half way between the exhaust closing and the intake opening.

This is TDC on the exhaust stroke.

Look and see where the timing mark on the damper is. Rub a bit of white paint in the timing mark so it shows up easy. Then make a mark on the timing cover in line with it. Replace the valve cover.

You now have an approximate timing mark to get you in the ballpark.

It makes no difference that it is the exhaust stroke as it is also TDC on the compression stroke 360 degrees later.

If you have a dial-back timing light (if not - buy one!) you can now set total timing by setting the light to 35 degrees, un-hook and plug the vacuum tube from the carb to the distributor, raise the rpm to 3000-3500, and set the timing mark at that. You might want to set it slightly less than 35 degrees to be safe until you replace that timing cover.

When you bring the rpm back down to idle it should be around 12 degrees advanced. Re-fit the vacuum line to the distributor.

by **Glenn Jackson (Henner)** » 28 Aug 2003 11:19

I was thinking the farther your timing was off the lower the vacum would be or your car would have the best vacum when the timing was right on!

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 28 Aug 2003 14:22

I can see that but i am just not sure how easy that would be in practice. You have to consider that you can run quite a lot of timing at idle and it will make great vacuum but it will then pink like hell under load.

If it was me I would take the head off and find exact TDC with a cam degree wheel and then weld on my own timing mark tab.

by **dave-r** » 28 Oct 2003 12:30

Just to update this thread.

I had a guy come around to my house with this very problem!

The car was a 1972 Challenger 340 and it had NO timing tag on the timing cover. This is what I did.

In my collection of bits I remembered I have a piston stop. This consists of a thread adaptor that screws into the spark plug hole on #1 and a long bolt then screws down through the middle of the adaptor into the cylinder.

First you turn the engine until the intake valve has just closed and the piston starts up on its compression stroke (you need the valve cover off to see this).

Then when you are sure the piston is on its way up you stop and screw the piston stop into the spark plug hole.

Continue to turn the engine until the piston hits the stop. Make a note or mark where the ballancer timing mark is.

Now you rotate the engine in the reverse direction until the piston comes up again against the stop. Make a note or mark at this new postion.

Your TDC point is exactly half way between these two points! This happened to be about an inch below the water pump body on the drivers side as you look at it.

To finish the job off I bent a brass rod to shape and fixed it on to a pump bolt so it pointed at TDC. I then blocked the vacuum line to the distributor and reved the engine to over 3000rpm. I set the total timing to 35 degrees at that rpm.

The engine sounded and felt much better after this.

I hope this helps anyone else out there having trouble with the timing on a 340!