[Graham Shortreed (Transma]

I can appreciate your situation Dave. Since you've got few choices, let the solvent soak in the cooler for a period of time, then blow compressed air through it. Then redo the procedure, but this time blow air through in the opposite direction. Keep doing this, until you can put a clean rag on one of the coolers outlets, and when you blow air through the cooler, the rag shows no contaimination.
That gun metal grey oil, suggests to me the sludge has been formed from something made from aluminum, although from 10K miles away it's difficult to say for sure. Check your planetaries. They're aluminum and prone to wear.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Cor! That looks an interesting book Blue. I might have to get me one of those. Don't know if it will arrive in time though.

I am starting to put the trans back together again now. Just waiting for Duncan to send me a new Belleville type piston return spring for the rear clutch retainer and a 60thou snap ring for the front clutch pack.

Thanks for the advice Graham. I will do my best.
The muck in the oil does seem to be confined to the bottom of the oil pan. I collected a small amount of oil from the cooler line and it seemed very clean to me. The filter must have been doing it's thing OK. It looks well clogged now though.

I cannot see anything that might be damaged. Some of the friction plates look and smell burnt.

I stripped everything out back to, and including, the overrunning clutch. The back of the inner race on the overrunning clutch seems to have worn into the case casting a little. That is the only damage I can see. I don't know what would cause that. There is not normally a washer or bearing in this place. The snap ring holding the annulus/planetary assembly in place has the required clearance.

The low-reverse band seems to require a lot of movement before engaging the drum. I have yet to check if it is in spec. Oil pump seems to be OK too.

All I can do is replace the piston seals and friction materials and put it all back together as carefully as possible. Then we will see what happens.

[David Robson (Admin)]

Don't worry. I am not putting it back together outside like this! It is inside now and everything is getting checked and cleaned before being put back in the case.

[Graham Shortreed (Transma]

Dave if you have damage on the rear sprag(overrunning clutch) I have access to the repair kit for this(it saves your case). I'm out of town for the next week on business, but if I can be of assistance to you drop me a note.
Just remember to put lots of vasoline on all the rubber seals when you reassemble the trans. Also, if you have access to one, change your filter from a dacron (felt) type to the brass full flow type. Anytime you run these things hard, or have them in storage, the brass filter is the better bet. I got this information from a builder who is also a MOPAR nut. By the way, when you reassemble the trans, put a filter in the transmission return line. They look like a gasoline filter. Run the trans for a while, then either replace the filter, or just throw it away, and replace it with some rubber transmission cooler line and a couple of clamps. The filter will insure any muck that might be left in the cooling system will not find it's way back to your transmission. In line filters are used here in most transmission shops after a rebuild.

[John P (Blue)]

Dave, there is an oiling mod to improve lubrication to the overunning clutch, I would think that insufficiant lubrication has caused the wear. Here's a poor photo, it is a 1/8'"dia drill size and it's 3/4" in from the inside edge, this is from me new book!

[John P (Blue)]

Oh, this is on the rearside of the main case, near to where the park lever pokes through, I think you should be able to make it out!

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Graham. The wear is not on the sprag itself but on the bit behind it that it rotates against. Maybe Blues modification will help?
I did have a felt filter in the pan but TCI supply a brass type (as you describe) in the re-build kit they sent. Your idea of a filter in the cooler return line sounds like a good one!

I should have said before but thanks to Trevor Young (1970 383 WSS) for coming round to help me drop the trans out. I have managed before on my own but it is a whole lot easier with another pair of hands. Hope you enjoyed those fish'n'chips mate. Funny how they always taste better with oily fingers? I will tune your Chally for you during the week if you want? I can do it at mine or I can drive over to Hog's if that is easier.

(Message edited by roppa440 on August 16, 2003)

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

THANKS BLUE!

[John P (Blue)]

No problem Dave!

[Hans Buijnink (72challeng]

Looks like I missed quit a bit while on vacation Dave! Are you sure you haven't toasted your trans as you said it smells a bit burned? You do have a trans temp gauge isn't it? Was thinking about this as with the OD you might be running below your stall speed most of the time... This will warm up the whole thing.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

The temp was only going up after a bit of hard full throttle driving. It only seems to be slipping when pushed hard with good traction and the taller slicks. I will have a look at Blue's modification later this PM and take the pump apart too to check the rotors. Just in case I am not getting full pressure from the pump.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Blue!
I beg to differ with your book!

I think maybe they are intending to shoot oil into the rollers. I have a better idea. I will drill my hole 9mm in from the inside edge. That will put the oil bang in the middle of where I have the metal-to-metal wear.

I will post photos later to show you what I mean. 1/8th of an inch seems a big hole to me too. That's like 3mm? I might drill closer to 2mm. I will have another look at it and post those pictures later.

[David Robson (Admin)]

Here is the overrunning clutch at the back of the trans. The rollers, springs, and inner ring have been removed.



In this better view you can see the wear at the back cause by metal-to-metal contact with the back of the case and the inner ring of the one-direction clutch.



This in the face of the inner ring that sits in there. It has wear but it is not in too bad a condition.



Here is a closer look at the casing so you can see it bits of ragged metal on the edges.



Anyone any ideas what may have caused this??

[David Robson (Admin)]

Anyway. I had a look at how far in I wanted my oil hole.



9mm would put me bang in the middle of that wear pattern.

I decided to drill a 2mm hole rather than 3mm.



And this is what it looks like from the other side.



A bit of 240 grit paper took the rough edges from the wear off.

[John P (Blue)]

Insufficient clearance at the circlip that holds the planetries in position? I haven't seen damage like that before, surely can only be 1 of 2 things, lack of oil or clearances too tight, lack of oil you have fixed!

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

The circlip would have to be damn tight to do that! The wear is about 0.5mm deep!
I can't imagine me missing that. It states quite clearly in the B&M instructions what the end play should be. I checked it after I found the damage and it is still spot on so maybe it has no direct pressure on that part?
I will put that section back together tonight and see if that could have been it or if there is anything wrong like a washer in the wrong place or something.

Maybe the filter clogged and I lost pressure, causing that wear and the clutches to slip?

[John P (Blue)]

The rear drum must rest against that inner ring of the clutch, I'm sure, so if the thrust washer on the end of the output shaft or any other thrust washer in front of it was too thick then it would force that inner ring of the clutch against the case. Did you check the end play at the pump end once the transmission was fully assembled? If the filter was clogged, then that sounds very likely that you could have been running "dry" Dave, what did the clutch plates and steels look like when you took them out?

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

I will take a picture of the plates later on and get back to you on that.

I did measure end play when it was all together too so it is a mystery to me. I will double check everything this time. I do not normally mess up on this sort of thing (as long as I have correct instructions) so it worries me. I am guilty of sometimes turning a blind eye to a tiny bit too much clearance if everything was working OK before and it would be a hassle or expensive to put right. But if something was way out or too tight I would not let it go like that.

[dave-r]

Continued in PART TWO.

[transman]

Dave.
Replace your friction and steel plates at the same time. What will happen with a steel plate is they will get a hot spot on them, and will never operate properly. If they get excessively hot, they can also warp.
Hot spots cause the friction plates NOT to engage properly on the hot spot.
I again want to mention that to the best of my knowledge B&M DO NOT manufacture steel plates, or friction plates. They may come in a B&M package or kit, but they will have been manufactured by one of the three clutch plate makers in the U.S.A., (unless of course they are outsourcing, ie Asian off shore) their plates. If you let me know if it is the front or rear clutch pack you are having a problem with, I'll get you the correct clutch and steel thickness and what you should have for clearances in that cluch pack when you've assembled it.
After all my years of experience in the transmission industry, I've come to the conclusion that a partial or cheap rebuild will end up costing you more in the long run than doing a thorough job to begin with.
transman

[dave-r]

All the above happened back in August last year man. I had kept a pile of plates from other rebuilds and used the best out of the bunch.

Thanks anyway for the input.