Vinyl top seams • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **Ken Bowser** » 16 May 2001 19:38

I am referencing 1970 only here.

On Dave's great site it mentions that there are 2 different seams. Basically SE or non-SE.

I am working on my Trans Am Mopar site and have pics of SEs with both seams, and non-SEs (including T/As) with both seams.

Some of my Mopar expert friends say that either seam was available with any model.

I wanted to see what others think. Also, if you have an opinion about 'Cuda tops, I'd like to hear them too.

Thanks

by **dave** » 17 May 2001 8:20

The trouble with these things is that because they were not painted under the vinyl they started to rust very quickly. Not many cars can still be wearing their original top and some may have had more than one by now. Mine is on it's third at least.

Also until only a few years ago it was hard to find the original style vinyl and it is so much cheaper to use a non-original material.

So it is very hard to tell what was original or not.

But it would be nice to find out!

by **Ken Bowser** » 17 May 2001 12:55

Maybe I need to clarify.

Dave's information notes that the SE used a different seam than non-SEs. What I gather from the site was that SEs had seams that run down the B-Pillar. Others would have seams that run to the back window.

I've seen SEs, T/As, R/Ts with both seams and was trying to determine if there was a particular seam pattern for each car. The best information I have says there is no rhyme or reason for which car got what.

So either pattern could be considered correct for any car. I just didn't want to be spreading false information on my site.

Thanks

by **dave-r** » 17 May 2001 13:20

Yeah but my point was how many of these cars you have seen are completely unrestored original cars that have not been touched since the day they left the factory? Most of the early replacements had a seam that ran down the B-pillar. They often also did not have the correct 'grain'. My car had a new top fitted in the 1980s and that had the seam on the B-pillar. The original one however did not.

I seem to remember reading someplace that the two styles were designed to be on the two different hardtops. This was a deliberate styling exercise. But it is very possible that they were getting mixed up on the production line when it came to putting them on the cars.

I will see if I can find that thing I remember reading about it.

by **Ken Bowser** » 17 May 2001 15:28

Thanks for checking Dave,

What I would expect, is that SEs should have the seam running down the B-pillar and others wouldn't. 'Cuda seams all run to the back window (at least all I've seen) and I'd wager that is because there is no SE equivalent to cause confusion.

My guess is that you are correct in saying that the "wrong" tops were being put on the wrong cars due to assembly line error or simply because that's what they had on hand at the time.

I understand about the restored/unrestored situation. I only have pics of 5 or 6 T/As that are unrestored, but none have vinyl tops.

What I'm attempting do do with my site is to show some common restoration errors. Stuff like wrong color wheel center caps, T/A decals being put on backwards, using Chrome mirrors, and for T/As only, wheel lip moldings.

I was told that T/As should have the B-pillar seam, but now believe that either seam would be correct. Thus my need to know.

Thanks again

by **Jack T** » 17 May 2001 16:37

From what I can gather by reading Paul Herd's book on Challenger and Barracuda restoration, the Challenger top was supposed to have the wide-set (51") seams that spread farther to go down the B-pillar and the Barracuda top got the seams sewn at 32" to go from the windshield to the rear window. He goes on to say that in 1972-74, it was common for the supplies of Challenger tops to run short towards the end of the month and Barracuda tops would be used instead. Whether this was happening in 1970 isn't clear from what he wrote, but one can imagine the assembly line confusion as the number of models and different tops grew during the 1970 production run.

As for your T/A top, there is a photo of the T/A with a vinyl top on the cover page of the Dodge Technical Services Bulletin #D70-25-2 dated May 20, 1970. Unfortunately, the seam isn't discernable in the reprint I have, but maybe someone else has a better copy of this photo of a factory issue T/A vinyl top.

by **Gord** » 17 May 2001 17:13

Look in the Mopar advertising section on Dave's Challenger page. The 2 page black and white T/A ad shows the vynal roof. Same car as the Bulletin.

Another book, The History of Mopars or something like that, has all kinds of pictures of the original ad cars from 1970.

Ken, what is the address for your site? I'd like to check it out. Also, do you have a colour scanned copy of the front page of the technical bulletin that you could email me? I've been looking everywhere for a decent one, it's the only page I'm missing for the set!

Thanks,
Gord

by **dave-r** » 17 May 2001 20:19

I knew I had read something somewhere.

Paul Zararine's Barracuda and Challenger Color History;

Carl Cameron (one of the Challengers main designers) is quoted as saying...

"The location of the seams on a standard vinyl roof run from front to rear. The SE seams ran from the windshield back beside the rear window to the base of the vinyl roof. This made the top appear lower in profile because you read the seams. It also looked wider from the rear. I thought I'd start an industry trend with that one"

by **Ken Bowser** » 18 May 2001 3:46

More info:

I have the Zazarine book, and it directly conflicts with Herd's book. Unfortunately both books have plenty of errors in them. I have a feeling that both are actually right here though. Ultimately what's supposed to be correct and what was done on the assembly line don't always match. I am used to dealing with a right or wrong answer, but unfortunately with Mopars, that doesn't always work. I'm probably going to conclude that either seam is correct.

I also contacted my friend Andy Cockroft who is a bit of an expert and also Barry Washington from the T/A registry. They are both of the opinion that both tops are correct for all models of Challenger, as the workers used what they had on hand. However, neither think that Gator Grain tops were available with the B-Pillar seam.

By the way Andy has a great website at:
http://andy440.virtualave.net/

You can check out my site by going here:
http://www.geocities.com/kissalien
Then click on the Mopar logo. It's not much now, as I've been battling work and health contraints for a while.

I'm in the middle of revamping the site and here's a few sample pages. Check it out and let me know what you think.

Wheel Page:
http://www.geocities.com/kissalien/aarta/wheels/wheels.html

Interior Page:
http://www.geocities.com/kissalien/aarta/interiors/interiors.html

Thanks,
Ken

by **dave-r** » 18 May 2001 7:37

Cheers Ken
I will make a small amendment to my site to reflect this. I might even give you a link

.

I will just add this to my growing pile of 'things to do when I have more time'.

by **Joe Hines** » 17 Jun 2001 21:50

I have a 1970 Challenger that is plum crazy with a black vinyl top. The top is in poor condition and needs to be replaced. I am wondering if it is possible to remove the top completely and paint the metal. Would the car look original if that was done or did the vinyl top option make changes to the sheetmetal? Any help would be appreciated.

by **dave-r** » 17 Jun 2001 22:46

Yes the top can be removed and the metal painted. This is how the Challengers without vinyl tops looked. You will have to weld up the holes where the trim around the bottom of the vinyl top fitted.

by **Alan (Sean)** » 20 Mar 2002 13:10

If you want to see some excellent pics of T/A's and AAR cudas type in aarchives in the search box.Very nice site to visit but this site here is by far the most informative. The people here are great!!!!!!!!

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 20 Mar 2002 14:09

And just reading Joes post there again I would also add that the metal work on the rear pillars will need a fair bit of work as they didn't bother to finish it well if a top was covering it.

by **Mike Lanouette (Mikel)** » 21 Mar 2002 12:53

Just for the record,my 1970 SE (build date C01)
has the seam to the back window

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 21 Mar 2002 13:36

Thanks Mike. I think we have all worked out now that the original concept went right out of the window and you got whatever vinyl top was to hand at the time!