The Dodge Challenger Message Board

Took me "only" 6 1/2 days to get there and 5 1/2 tou get back. 2 weeks with the Olds and family in Sydney. I took my time as i didn't want to do too much night driving. Kangaroos are everywhere and you don't want to hit one of those at any speed. Notwithstanding the fact that i am also an animal lover as well as a Chally lover ! However i did have to do some night driving to make it to the next town for the nightly stop over. The worst time for 'roos is dawn and dusk. Luckily however, due to lots of rain, there was plenty of green grass for them out in the plains and they didn't have to come near the road to feed. One section was bad though i had slowed down to 40mph for a whole hour. A slow trip that part. I sure am glad i fitted the 100W aircraft landing lights for the high beam.

The car went like dream. A noisy, thirsty dream. The 15gallon (i think?) fuel tank was annoying, not much range at 17mpg. It steered and handled far better than i ever expected. Brakes (power discs)were good before the car was loaded up. With some weight they were not that good anymore! I put earplugs in when i got sick of that sweet mechanical music and found that without the tiring wind and tyre noise the car would sit effortlessly 90-100mph depending on the road conditions and still steer well. I took it up to an indicated 130mph which was only about 4800rpm (2.76 rear) and by then the front end was getting VERY wafty and floaty and so i had to guess it would have done 140 given enough bravery and a better road. Not bad out of a mild 360 that only cost me AUS$2000 + $900 for the TTi headers. In Sydney the Dyno showed only 206 Rear Wheel HP, a bit disappointing but it still pushed the car along well enough. It would have more now with the rejetting and if i put a much better single plane inlet on too.

These cars are rare in OZ, everyone knows a corvette, and Mustang but only a few people actually knew what it was. Everyone came up to comment, look and admire. People waved and tooted the horn and truckies flashed their lights. People just could not believe i was driving this car across the country. Well why not i said, that's what they were made for and what they do best (the Oil Companies agree).

The trip was even better becasue there was no rain at all on the way there and only a few hours on the way back. I did not use the wipers on the whole trip! I put Rainex on the windscreen which is what the race cars use and they also put it on the cockpit canopy of jets. The rain just slides off over about 40mph. I did not want to use the wipers because i had already burnt out one 3 speed wiper switch and didn't want to burn out the last one i had!

More pics, pity i didn't have a telescopic zoom for the whales.

Roger, who used to post on here a lot, bought his Chally in Sydney and had to drive it back to the Perth area. He sent me a lot of photos of his trip a few years ago. All those long empty straight roads. Sleeping on the side of the road on the ground in a sleeping bag etc.
You doing it there and back is as mad as the US road trip we are doing in a few weeks time.

206 RWHP is probably about 280 at the crank. Those gears must be pretty tall to only be doing 2K at 80mph. That will not help torque at the rear wheels so maybe your crank HP is really higher?

We have not heard from Roger for many years. This is his place somewhere near Perth. http://www.karrivalley.com.au/

Cool trip Sounds like you had fun. No problems at all?

Nice pics Steve! Wow, my R/T at 50 MPH has around 2300 RPM's at 60 MPH you are litening to the 440 plant sing at 3000 RPM's with 3.54 geared Dana I wish for 16 MPG but get around 10 or so. I havent calculated it accurately. It does get roughly twice the MPG from the 'Old Tune' and a bunch more power! The gearing shouldnt effect the chassis dyno RWHP output since it measures torque and interpolates the HP from this measurement regardless of wheel speed. At least thats what they told us during our Chassis dyno certification. Diesel Trucks we tested would only turn to 2500-3000 RPM's depending on the engine design and programmer,(engine management system) and this was on a SuperFlow Chassis Eddy Current load cell.

Hi Dave, yes i know Roger, he bought a 360 off me a few years ago for his Chal. He runs a successful resort lodge style accomodation. I have not seen or heard from him for a while either.

I enjoyed the drive. More interesting than flying, which i am sick of. The weather was perfect driving weather. Cold enough to be able to put the windows up and allow beautiful cool air through the vents (they allow buckets of air through) but still didn't need to put the heater on.

I'm glad you said that about the RWHP ! On the dyno (Dyno Dynamics type), the dyno speed limiter kept cutting in and prevented a top speed being showed. He said it was because of teh tall gears. It was a perfect diff ratio i found. But i think with the cam i was running a truer indication of HP will be found when i dyno it here in Perth with a 3.54 Posi i will put in. I was hoping for about 300HP (about 225-230 RW) so maybe it is closer. As i said, it was runnning far too lean on the seconddaries and the dizzy (we think) did a weird thing which caused a dip in the graph, and by the time the HP climped up again, the dyno speed was up too high.

fal308 wrote:Cool trip Sounds like you had fun. No problems at all?

Thanks, Only a few little things. 1. The front end developed a rattle on the LHS. I worked out it was the driver side caliper rattling. I assumed one of the anti-rattle clips had fallen off. When i got to Sydney i was chatting to a fellow who i had just bought a 340 off and an OD A833 all alloy g'box. He gave me some anti rattle clips off his 73 Cuda along with the caliper slide pins. Well when i inspected the calipers and went to put the clips in i found that one of the slide pins had completely broken. Hence the rattle. I also found that Mother Mopar, in her infinite wisdom had made the 73 Cuda pins longer than my 73 Chal ones! This is because mine does not use the clips, for some reason. But i only found this out after i had fitted the longer Cuda pin with the clip.

2. The big circlip on the heater lever shaft fell off. I made another one at home as i WAS NOT pulling out the heater controls for that!

3. I think the dyno run caused the neck of the torque converter to crack. Apparently it is very common. About 1000Km from Perth on the way back it started dripping quite badly except in Park when it stopped. There is no pressure in the pump then. It started blowing white smoke as the trans fluid burnt on the collectors. I bought 10 litres of fluid and topped it up every 200miles or so. Made it back. That was all the problems! Yay.

airfuelEddie wrote:Nice pics Steve! Wow, my R/T at 50 MPH has around 2300 RPM's at 60 MPH you are litening to the 440 plant sing at 3000 RPM's with 3.54 geared Dana I wish for 16 MPG but get around 10 or so. I havent calculated it accurately. It does get roughly twice the MPG from the 'Old Tune' and a bunch more power! The gearing shouldnt effect the chassis dyno RWHP output since it measures torque and interpolates the HP from this measurement regardless of wheel speed. At least thats what they told us during our Chassis dyno certification. Diesel Trucks we tested would only turn to 2500-3000 RPM's depending on the engine design and programmer,(engine management system) and this was on a SuperFlow Chassis Eddy Current load cell.

Thanks Ed, i wish you had of been there at the dyno run - the guy didn't know Mopars from a bar of soap. And i didn't feel comfortable with him behind the wheel revving it up either.

BTW, i checked my speedo error and it is only around 3% optomistic. I was very careful about selecting the best speedo pinion (thanks Dave for that spreadsheet calculator). So 82mph indicated was about 80 and the 130 run i did was probably closer to 125mph. If it had the torque to push that huge amount of air it would theoretically do 150. And my thinning grey hair would be even thinner and greyer afterwards.

What a great trip, that takes some serious trust in your machine. Glad your Chally was up to the task and manager to avoid the roos. Always wanted to see Australia the way you just did. Maybe someday.

I remember as a kid we did a 1400 mile run up to the Pacific Northwest. Slept just off the road in a tent. Ate dinner with a tire iron (poor planning), bathed in the frigid Salmon River in Idaho. Great memories as I bet you have.

Goldenblack440 wrote:

airfuelEddie wrote:Nice pics Steve! Wow, my R/T at 50 MPH has around 2300 RPM's at 60 MPH you are litening to the 440 plant sing at 3000 RPM's with 3.54 geared Dana I wish for 16 MPG but get around 10 or so. I havent calculated it accurately. It does get roughly twice the MPG from the 'Old Tune' and a bunch more power! The gearing shouldnt effect the chassis dyno RWHP output since it measures torque and interpolates the HP from this measurement regardless of wheel speed. At least thats what they told us during our Chassis dyno certification. Diesel Trucks we tested would only turn to 2500-3000 RPM's depending on the engine design and programmer,(engine management system) and this was on a SuperFlow Chassis Eddy Current load cell.

Thanks Ed, i wish you had of been there at the dyno run - the guy didn't know Mopars from a bar of soap. And i didn't feel comfortable with him behind the wheel revving it up either.

Thats not to say that at 200 RPM a measurement could be taken. It's a mathmetical formula that for gasoline engines is 5250 RPM. For diesel it's another formula since diesel burns much slower than gas and has a much lower operating RPM than gas. But think about it for a second. Gearing has nothing to with power production. The power band changes. if you make 200 RWHP which is what my W-150 360 mag truck made at a certain RPM and change the gearing, the power curve on the dyno will happen sooner. Thats it. If gearing changed power everyone would use a 12 speed! Gearing only changes when the power will be made. At least thats from my understanding. I could be wrong about this too.

I have a feeling you're right Ed, but i prefer Daves thought because it allows me to think i might have more HP! I will let you know what i get on the dyno in Perth with the 3.55 gears. I hope thats a Dyno Dynamics type as well for ease of comparison. The Dyna Pak type is supposed to be more accurate. They take the wheels off and bolt the turning mass directly to the hub. No rollers and tyre friction to compensate for.

Yeah, but the SuperFlow measures this in to account with a speed sensor on the driveshft, or the vibration damper,and the fact that any tire slippage will be caught and factored in to the calculations. Plus I dont know if I would be comfortable letting all that load being dispaced on my axles/ hub' and differential and bearings when the load is placed on them. I would rather have the wheels and tires using this shock to absorb the dyno's load then the mechanical components themselves. To be honest Steve, Ive never even heard of this type of load chassis dyno as you described! Are both hubs attached to the cell? The speed sensors are accurate to within 1 RPM so this 'slippage' from the tires is strictly accounted for! we can simulate hills, long grades, drag racing, load pulling, ectt

Jon wrote:What a great trip, that takes some serious trust in your machine. Glad your Chally was up to the task and manager to avoid the roos. Always wanted to see Australia the way you just did. Maybe someday.

I remember as a kid we did a 1400 mile run up to the Pacific Northwest. Slept just off the road in a tent. Ate dinner with a tire iron (poor planning), bathed in the frigid Salmon River in Idaho. Great memories as I bet you have.

Thanks Jon, yes it was about 11000km all up . About 6800 miles. ( i hate Sydney traffic and city roads but i had to drive in it)

I didn't have a huge amount of trust in the car! That's why i took about 150Kg of spares and tools! Power steer pump, a whole radiator, hoses, belts and a dizzy, coil and 2 ECU's. Another fuel pump. Another ThermoQuad., spare alternator, water pump and a new viscous clutch hub and 10litres of rad fluid. The whole cooling system was patched up literally, with Sika flex (a liquid polyurethane) but it didn't miss a beat. Only the trans in the end looked like it was a bit sick, but i think it is the front pump seal or hopefully only the converter neck cracked.

Well gears give you torque multiplication at the rear wheels. But lower the rpms. So mathamatically they even out. No extra Hp from gears. Sorry.

But if you were not at you peak HP rpm because your wheel speed was limited it might have been short changing you slightly.

Damn, well it was a nice thought while it lasted.

I did ask the Dyno guy at what RPM did the max power show and i could see that he was unsure of the correct figure so he covered it up with a quick answer of "5000rpm". Another thing that was disappointing is that even though one graph showed the torque curve Vs HP (the other graph showed Fuel/Air ratio Vs HP), there was no corresponding torque number readouts, so it was meaningless to have torque there. Well he only charged me fifty bucks for it so can't complain and gave me a starting point.


I'd like to run this rhetorical question past Ed though -just say you had 10 dynos all lined up - all at different stages of wear and some of the same type, others different types and brands. You took your car and did a run on each of them. I wonder what sort of different readouts you would get for the same engine? I reckon there could conceivably be up to 10% variation in readouts. And how would you know which one was correct? How do they calibrate a dyno without a "standard load" Or do they have a special piece of equipment that physically bolts on an allows them to calibrate? Even a known test engine would not be accurately known all the time - its power/torque would vary as well.

The chassis dyno has what is referred to as 'Correction' factors. You could set them all at 15% (we use 18%) and they would still produce different numbers from each one! These CF's take into account things like tire sidewall flex, rotational frictions, air density, mechanical component degradations, frontal area of the vehicle,( a big one there)!,,weight, auto or manual,(auto's use more energy than a manual but it's very slight), many other things! But you have to realise something here. The chassis dyno's are used as a tool not as a throw down absolute number that you should get 'hung up on' it's really a wonderful thing. You can use it to see how much you have progressed on your tuning, mods, setting up Fuel Injection maps ectt without having to use the public and dangerous roadways to determine your WOT speeds and if you made the car 'faster' or quicker. Next time you use one ask the operator what his correction factor is. The dyno is a tool only.

The last Car we did was a 2008 Chevy Corvette Z-06 with 505 (ASE Cert. HP according to the ASE and G.M.). guess what the RWHP was on that one?? 394 The owner swore it should make 450+ he was a little upset. A new Dodge Hemi 5.7 'Daytona' truck went 245 HP this was all in 76% Humidity and 94 degree weather. We had 2 huge Industrial fans going but the Air Density at those temps/humidity wasnt there at our sea level.

Thanks for that comprehensive reply Eddie, very interesting mate. I did not know there were so many correctional factors. ! So when the fellow typed in "73 Dodge Challenger", you reckon the Dyno computer should have had the frontal area compensation factor for that model? I'd be surprised if it would have. So yes, they are a tool only, not a standard, of course. So when people tell me dyno figures now i will not place too much importance on it but take it a little more lightly. That Z6 story was interesting, i'm sure the fellow was a bit peeved. Are you saying that the factory gave a 505 Rear Wheel HP figure, or was that at the flywheel? Factoring in all the absolute negative tolerances and worst conditions (air density, humidity, fuel quality- that's a big one, etc) compared to the absolute best conditions, i could easily see a 20% difference on just one dyno machine.

It certainly will be interesting when i get it dyno'ed again in a few months.

The best Dyno is the drag strip.
If you know your exact weight you can work out what horsepower you made getting there. Plus you have to "keep on it" 30 ft past the finish line to get a true MPH average.

Your MPH will tell you what your rear wheel horsepower is.
The ET will tell you how much HP you got to the track.

As long as you do not have a strong head or tail wind it is probably the best Dyno there is.

dave-r wrote:The best Dyno is the drag strip.
If you know your exact weight you can work out what horsepower you made getting there. Plus you have to "keep on it" 30 ft past the finish line to get a true MPH average.

Your MPH will tell you what your rear wheel horsepower is.
The ET will tell you how much HP you got to the track.

As long as you do not have a strong head or tail wind it is probably the best Dyno there is.

i agree that is one reason i have never paid for dyno time, its just a raw number, the track is real time with real elements to contend with like in every day driving, the dyno is so controlled it doesnt really apply to real driving

No Steve, the engines arent based on RWHP,,crankshaft and now Crankshaft and certified by the SAE,(Society of American Engineers). The 2008 Chevy Corvette Z-06 being the first SAE cert. engine. To my limited knowledge, the Chrysler performance engines routinely surpassed all factory ratings, but hey they be MoPars! I would rather tune my car on a dyno in preparation for a day at the track, then take it out and hit a Deer, or worse, hit a State Trooper On our SuperFlow Chassis eddy current dyno we have to manually add the frontal area in inches, so it's pretty accurate. Sure the dagstrip/roadcourse is the ultimate judge of HP, MPH ect but as I said earlier it's a tool,, which if used properly can aid in tuning without the dangers of WOT on the open road. Around here doing 120 MPH on the open road will get you a nice little vacation in the County Jail were you will be point man in a circle Jerk Using fuel injection,, you MUST use the dyno or risk leaning out the engine enough to cause serious damage. Also in Fuel Injection, the WOT maps are difficult to achieve on the road unless you live in Australia on the worlds longest stretch of road. Watch out for those 'Roos' Drew, a controlled enviornment is exactly what you want in tuning because you will know exactly what changes did what and did they help or hurt. Small changes are sometimes difficult to detect 'on the road' small changes can win races or show weaknesses in the setup. This is called datalogging. This is what the professionals use and is VERY effective in keeping you on the right track in your tuning.

airfuelEddie wrote:To be honest Steve, Ive never even heard of this type of load chassis dyno as you described! Are both hubs attached to the cell? The speed sensors are accurate to within 1 RPM so this 'slippage' from the tires is strictly accounted for! we can simulate hills, long grades, drag racing, load pulling, ect

No i had not even heard of it before either until i spoke to the fellow who built my TQ. I can not honestly tell you any more than that. I will send you a PM with the internet site they have in Sydney, might tell you more about it. I think they charge more than the other dyno types. I probably could not afford it anyway ( i am permanently on a budget!)

I'll sit on the fence on that one. I think Eddie is correct in that the dyno (providing you keep using the same one) is safe and controlled tool (no 'roos or deer or troopers) for measuring your tuning and performance mods and changes. Also far less hassle than using a dragstrip unless you have one in your back yard along with the expensive timing equipment. Plus i think it would be far less stress on your drivetrain runnning up on a dyno compared to doing multiple hard starts on a track

But the strip is the real deal, where realistic performance can be felt in the seat of your pants and seen in the numbers with all the real factors like air drag and road surface are in place. Plus no deer, cops or 'roos on the strip hopefully

Ed, here's the link to the place in Sydney that uses the DynaPack type. They explain why and a bit about it etc.

http://www.tunehouse.com.au/dyno_tuning.html

Pretty high tech stuff there Steve! I like it! Our's is an eddy current with 3 phase AC 440 volt electric motor. It can place as much load as you want and can handle over 2000 H.P.(with upgrade and dual drums) here's a link to it. The only 'advantage' I see with ours, is the fact with Nitrous Engines or Roots blown SuperChargers the torque generated is enormous. We have recorded over 1200 ft. lbs. the shock of hitting the sytem when you activate a 400 H.P. 'shot' is absorbed by the tires. The speed sensor determines how fast a rotating object is spinning, tire slip can therefore be determined and factored in. This helps preserve driveline components. But I like the DynaPac system too, for absolute accuracy it's probably better but I'm not an Engineer, just learning to be an operator so I can safely tune my Fuelie project when the time comes. http://www.superflow.com/Dynamometers/C ... rbers.html another thing is I'm sure the DynaPac can also measure driveline component wear as the SuperFlow unit.

Here's the Dungeon! We are going to move to a new 18 Bay facility, complete with Engine development center some time soon ,at least thats what they tell us. By then I wont be in Auto tech anymore, Machine Tech! The 'Rack' the blue heavy frame is adjustable for width but not length. I can and have dynoed my W-150 4x4 on it. But anything longer cant be placed on it until we move and get a larger or adjustable rack. The top output is a 93 Baretta with 540 Nitrous Chevy it made 1060 H.P. and over 1200 ft. lbs. with 400 HP shot of squeeze. It runs on Methanol. Not my bag really. I thought the Turbo Diesel Dodge Cummins is far more impressive. You can easily make 600 HP and 1300 ft. lbs. and drive it cross country to Goldfield, Nevada, tow 10 Tons, then unhook yer load,,run 11 second 1/4's with it. http://www.scheiddiesel.com/race_reslut ... yno_hp.php

Wow , i am impressed with that get-up set-up. Sound like you need a uni degree to operate it.