The Dodge Challenger Message Board

So last Friday, I took the day off and went down with a buddy to XV Motorsports in Irvington, NY. About 2 hours from where I live. For anyone that doesn't know, XV builds high-end, high-dollar Mopars. As in 100,000 to 250,000 dollar cars. They engineer their own front and rear suspension, power window kits, headers, etc.

My buddy and I were browsing the showroom, and the manager actually came out and talked to us for over an hour, despite the fact that we were 2 teenagers that clearly couldn't afford most of his products. He even put a 1969 charger on a lift and showed us in detail his suspension components and the engineering behind them. I was very impressed by his attitude, and more impressed with his engineering. There is a lot of thought that has gone into these parts, and it shows.

Of course, some of the stuff was a little hokey (like 3" exhaust to 2 1/2" over the rear end because of space limitations, effectively making the whole thing 2 1/2 inch exhaust)

I've been looking at an AlterKtion K frame from Reilly Motorsports for a while, and I figured this XV K frame was out of my league. (Twice as much, sans brakes) The XV uses '06 and up corvette lower A arms and spindles, and '05 and up mustang steering rack. He mentioned to wait for another 6 months or so, as they are in the middle of transitioning their manufacturing from Canada to local companies, and the price of the front-end will drop quite a bit.

Well, my break is over here, I will post the pictures at lunchtime!

Moparman1972 wrote:Of course, some of the stuff was a little hokey (like 3" exhaust to 2 1/2" over the rear end because of space limitations, effectively making the whole thing 2 1/2 inch exhaust)

Actually there is a theory that you should slowly reduce the diameter of the exhaust pip as it gets to the rear in order to maintain exhaust speed.

As gasses cool they reduce in pressure and speed. A good 440 system might start with 2" primaries into 3.5 inch collectors. Then into a 3" pipe to the mufflers. Then 2.5 from the mufflers, over the axle, and out the back.

I was actually reading that in the thread in the engine section where eddie was talking about that. Really interesting stuff.

The guy at XV advertises 3" exhaust. If you restrict it to 2 1/2" somewhere down the line, then it is not a 3" exhaust system anymore. That was where I thought he was a bit off.

Pictures!

Thanks Moparman 72, Cool pic's! It will be a while before, I get my XV suspension. Nice but, pricey$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Talking with Mr. Bergman down there, he said they should be drastically reducing the price soon to be more competitive with the AlterKtion. He mentioned switching to steel, (currently, the k frame is entirely thick-walled aluminum), finding cheaper LCA's, and redesigning the UCA's as billet pieces that can be machined in-house rather than as welded tubes.

Just as a reference to those reading, current prices are:

AlterKtion price: $4200
XV K-frame price: $7500

Neither of these prices includes brake packages. 14" brakes are an $1800 add-on. There are huge differences between systems, and that is reflected in the price. XV's is quite a bit more work to install, also.

If XV can knock the price down closer to the AlterKtion price, I'd love to have one. But right now, the slight difference in ability on the track does not offset the added cost.

A chap in my car club imports cars from the US to sell here and his US base is next door to XV. He gave me some of their brochures and a DVD to watch. Not watched it yet!

ability on the track does not offset the added cost,good point the old torsion bars work well,if set up properly, how ever the rear leafs spring set up is very old and out dated,from the conestoga wagon era

Reilly Motorsports has a wicked cool 4-link rear for sale that requires very little modification to put in. And it is about half as much as the XV 3 link rear. I might end up making my own 3 link, though. As for the front suspension.......I am waiting to see what they do with the price on the XV kit.

Dave, do you mean literally right next door? It was the weirdest little area that XV was in, this brick warehouse on the waterfront in a sleepy little town. Very very rich town though. Counted 12 Porsche Cayennes, the SUV's. Carerras, Mercedes, BMWs were all too numerous to keep track of....

And take a look at the DVD! It's really neat stuff, and I'm surprised I didnt hear of these guys until earlier this year.

Drew, Reillymotorsports actually has a K-Frame now that does away with the coilovers and uses torsion bars that run in the K-frame! Quite the piece of engineering!

Moparman1972 wrote:Dave, do you mean literally right next door?

That is what Mal Bird told me. But I don't know how literal he was being?

Mal runs this place in the UK http://musclecartechnology.com/

I have always been of the opinion that any street car can do without the XV front suspension. If i was a serious circuit racer trying to beat serious opposition it would be another matter but I just don't see how you can push a Mopar hard enough on the street to justify these changes. If you set the mopar front end up correctly using the right parts it is more than enough.

The rear springs though I would have to agree are not ideal for any kind of serious cornering. You can do things to make it a lot better. Poly bushes in the spring eyes and a rear sway bar help a lot. Some sort of Watts linkage would be ideal. That would take a fair bit of fabrication but would make a big difference.

At the end of the day though you cannot beat fully independent suspension.

Very nice pieces there Dylan, but what are you setting your Challenger up for?. I agree 110% with Dave. I cant actually 'test' my suspension, but I have every Heavy Duty 'Bolt On' part that Dick Ross sells at Firm Feel, front&rear sway bays, Fast Ratio 20:1 manual box, (my R/T came with 26:1 manual steering) Moog suspension components, billet lower control arm studs, heavy strut rods,,C-Body end links fully enclosed, his rear HD springs and front T-Bars at 1.14, all poly graphite bushings front, mid point and rear. Eds IAS shocks, , but someday might go with something better there. But my chassis quickly overpowers my 'skinny tires and heavy 15" steel wheels through the turns it's very 'flat' fairly quick and you can feel the rubber giving way. It's fairly 'tailhappy' but a lot of fun thru the curves compared to a stock setup. You must be planning on something lightweight,, huge/wide low profile rubber, 5 or 6 speed, totally ridiculous powerplant. I love it!!

I'm not sure,,but Mal's 70 White Challenger has "Dave's" type of wheels. Very nice!

airfuelEddie wrote:I'm not sure,,but Mal's 70 White Challenger has "Dave's" type of wheels. Very nice!

Those wheels have been on a few cars including a blue Challenger a few years ago. Mal fitted them on that white Challenger when he heard I was getting some for my car. Just to wind me up I think.

Not as nice or as wide as mine though.

Drew, Reillymotorsports actually has a K-Frame now that does away with the coilovers and uses torsion bars that run in the

i will check that out thanks!

Eddie, I tore my Challenger apart last fall thinking I'd do a lot of the things you mentioned to simply improve it. Then I bought my Porsche 944 and I raced it at the Limerock Road Course, and it was the most fun I've ever had. I never was just a straight line guy, but this was such a blast, and I knew I had to do that with a real car. (I.E. V8 musclecar) I've traded PM's with Fabien quite a bit too, about his Challenger, and that just fed my vision.

So I'm bound and determined to trade or sell whatever I can and put it into making my challenger the caliber of car that XV puts out. While I may not be able to afford their front suspension, an Alterktion is right up there. And the 3 link thing is something I can do myself. I have frame connectors and some ideas about how to brace the inner fenderwells and tie the car together underneath. XV's setup for adding additional bracing to the inner fenderwell is kinda hokey, seeing as how they keep the stock shock bracing and then just weld to it, even though it is flimsy and you could clean it up and make straight ties to the fender and frame better with how their k-frame is.

Plans include a keisler 5 speed, alterktion or xv with 14 inch rotors, 3 link rear, keep my fiberglass fenders and get a proper fiberglass TA hood, and hopefully find a 340 small block to stroke. If not, I have the 440 sitting around and I can put all aluminum everything on that, but I really would prefer a small block. Do all the normal lightening stuff to it and see where I end up. It should be a blast.

Then thats what I would do Dylan! Dont forget, MoPar now makes a 360 block thats specifically built for racing if you cant get a rare 340 based block. Or a stock 360 would also work or even a 360 Magnum bare block. Either way, 406 to 440 cubes would be possible depending on your crank, bore and rod selection. I wish I definitely had better brakes! More surface area, lighter wheels, fatter rubber.They fade very quickly and dont dissipate the heat fast enough. And thats with the farmland roads I drive on! If it were on 'closed course' I wouldnt have ANY brakes after a couple of easy laps! I want to use 15" wheels and the 'Cop Car' brakes are looking/sounding better everytime I take it out.(73 Spindles, 11.75 1 piece rotors, Carbon pads form FF or Hawke fits inside of 15" Rallyes) Someday I'll have to start gathering parts to do that. Then maybe Afco or Koni shocks/dampers. This way I can put it back to stock fairly easily. Ive asked this question to many people and always get a different answer, but the rear single composite springs made by Landrum and other companies. Are they OK for lateral forces,,or just drag racing. Too bad XV/FF are the only places that supply RoadRace/Hi-Po Street parts for muscle era Mopars. I'm 'not' into drag racing at all to be honest. It's 'over' much too quickly! I have a free ticket to the US Nationals this weekend,,but it doenst interest me in the least. I do appreciate the engineering it takes however

Hey Eddie, that AlterKtion is entirely bolt in, by the way. It has the upper coilover mounts integrated into the K-Frame, so you literally take the old frame out and bolt that one in. No modifications necessary, and you can always put it back to stock.

And yeah, here in New England theres lots of hills and turns. I used to work second shift and get out about midnight, and my ride home was just deserted back roads. Id give that 944 quite a workout.

Stock discs are 11", right? I had never heard of a cop car brake package.

By the way, 18" rims minimum with the brake setup I want, and I want to go 10" wide in the back, 9" in the front. I am going to be looking far and wide to find a rim that doesn't look ridiculous on the car....XV's rims look decent, but I'd rather have less caliper showing, I think. More of an old-school rim?

Stock brakes are 10.75". The "cop" brakes were actually stock heavy duty items used on a lot of mopars from about 1976 - on. They are 11.75" diameter. Got them on my car with slider calipers.

For some big wheels you may want to try Wheels Vintique. They make several of the Mopar and "older" styles in up to 20' wheels
http://www.wheelvintiques.com/

Yeah Dave's right, plus if you wanted to, you could use Brembo/Viper brakes on your muscle era MoPar! The parts would be very resonable too! www.manciniracing.com in the brakes section,, has all the AR Engineering machined hub, Caliper adaptors, Viper Parts ectt. You would need 73+ spindles or FJM body ones,, I think this would require the use of 17" wheels as a minimum though. But it all fits, with huge rotors 13"!!! I think and the parts are available at any parts store. Check it out! I dont like the use of coilovers on a front end not designed for it. Just my personal preference. If I were to do this I would want heavy reinforcement to the structural sheetmetal.

Thanks Dave, did not know that. And thanks for the pointer on wheels, fal.

Eddie, it is not like that Magnumforce front end, if that is what you are thinking. That thing is a disaster, with the coilovers mounting where the shocks go. I cannot believe someone thought that putting all of the stress of the suspension onto the sheetmetal inner fenders was an ok thing to do. The AlterKtion one has its own integrated upper coilover mount. It does use the stock upper A-arm mounting. The XV one requires cutting up the sheetmetal and welding a heavy-duty upper mount onto the top of the frame. The alterktion only has 4 or 4.5" of travel to the coilover, though, due to the fact that it's designed to require no modification, so the coilover sits below the original shock mounts.

The Alterktion uses mustang II spindles, allowing for a lot of common brake kits and some pretty big components to be used.

The XV kit uses 06 and up corvette spindles, making brake choices very pricey.

Looking at manciniracing, those are huge brake kits that you can fit on a pretty stock front end! I am set on eliminating torsion bars and lightening the front, though, so a redesigned K frame with new spindles is what I'm going to have to work with.

I see, thanks for explanation Dylan! Too bad those pesky T-Bars get in the way of exhaust suspension components huh! But I completely understand the weight reduction targets you are after. I just havent seen any track times stock vs..modded like mine and Daves vs..'insane' like Fabiens

The guy at XV said he still didn't have proper track time comparisons or G ratings all written down.

He did say that after testing on several road courses, turns taken at 50mph on the stock TA they keep around could be negotiated without a problem at 70mph on their orange XV001 Challenger. There was also a LOT of weight in that car. A new 5.7L hemi with fuel injection, steel fenders and trunk lid, 4 power window kit, power door locks, trunk locks, backup cameras, other unnecessary fancy shit, kept the weight around 3600 pounds.

By the way, when did you become a moderator?! Your icon wasn't bright green last time I saw it!

Wow, you Americans have such great stuff over there to see. I was impressed with what you said about that guy giving you the time to show and explain his engineering exploits and cars. Those things are remembered for a long time.

I would love to be in a situation where money was not an issue and i would love to get an Ebody and totally re-engineeer it to be as perfect as possible with all this sort of modern state-of the art engineered suspension and brakes. But keeping the interior and exterior virtually all as original. I would love to get as many body panels as possible done in fibreglass (hood and trunk lid, rear quarters and fenders, bumbers) to make a really light body, the seats could be totally rebuilt for racing style comfort but keeping the original look, rear end made independant, front with coil over shocks etc, aluminium bracing, underbody sealed smooth for reduced drag and front air mass diverted through channels in a wind tunnel design. All it takes is dollars and imagination and knowing the right people

I'm not a mod Dylan, it's just for the 'Top Secret stuff' we are posting on the VP trip. (Boobs and things)

Goldenblack440 wrote:Wow, you Americans have such great stuff over there to see. I was impressed with what you said about that guy giving you the time to show and explain his engineering exploits and cars. Those things are remembered for a long time. Moparman i was also surprised to hear you say you are still a teenager - no offence, but i got the impression from reading your posts that you were older - because you are very knowledgable and write very well.

He's one of the few that can actually spell and write in a cohesive technically written manner thats understandable!

Bit like you Eddie, you ain't half bad with a word or two. But you (like me) are still teenagers, you know...when it comes to that "Top Secret" girlie stuff.

Goldenblack440 wrote:Bit like you Eddie, you ain't half bad with a word or two. But you (like me) are only teenagers on the inside, you know...when it comes to that "Top Secret" girlie stuff.

Oh yeah,,always think juvenile! The true secret of youth my man. Just ask Dave and my 'partner' Wayne