The Dodge Challenger Message Board

Hi everyone.
Just thought I'd give you guys a run down on how we're progressing wih the car.
We've had the box stripped for a bi-annual refresh and found a couple of things wrong, nothing major the worst being a trashed front planetary where a circlip has come out and managed to find it's way to the back and destroy the bearing surfaces of the planetary and carrier. So we've upgraded to a five pinion steel. While we were in there we refreshed everything and also upgraded to billet servo's, wow those springs are tight, they should release the bands a lot quicker than the old oem ones. The plates clutches and bands were in real good condition so I think I'll extend the rebuild to every 3 years now. Though we inspect the pan after the first race and every year.
The motor was a bit more interesting . Since it was built we've been chasing a haze/smoke problem from the LH header bank. At first we thought it was a head gasket, since it was gone through to the waterway and head studs, we replaced it. It went again, We traced this to a low spot on the head and got them skimmed. Problem solved? No. It still smoked/hazed on the LHS but apart from that it seemed to run OK. Anyway we had to change the rear seal this year after a bad flex plate failure (More on that later) so the motor was completely stripped.
Well well we found this



This lined up perfectly with where the head gaskets had been going which is where the low spot on the head was. You can see here that we use Hemi/wedge head gaskets. Something to do with the KB block design been based on a Hemi since wedge head gaskets hang into the water way a bit too much for my liking. Imagine the gasket traveling strieght to the top on the LHS of the photo and look at the witness marks for the water way. There is also evidence of the head "lifting" look at the gasket between cylinders and the distortion on # 3 cylinder fire ring. This was the worst gasket BTW the last one out doesn't look bad at all.



# 1 piston, the top ring has lost a lot of coating and the piston has nipped the 2nd ring. So there's why it smoked and the cause, would be detonation. The contaminated intake charge has got between the ring lands. Oil, water and fuel doesn't make for good combustion . I fear this is what it's been like since it was first run! and it has run 9.71 @ 140 (on 7 1/2 cyls )
Trouble is we should have spotted this years ago since the 528 had issues with head sealing too
We've also been having issues with converter bolts working loose so we had the crank checked for balance. It was out, slightly, OK for street, sub 6000 rpm use but not good for a 7500rpm motor. EDA ( http://www.engine-data.co.uk/ ) balanced it for us and got it perfect, well done guys Bob weight was around 2400 grams (can't remember exactly) slightly lighter than a stock 440, so its heavy but not bad for a 4.5 stroke, steel rod rotating assembly . I'm tempted by alloy rods but have always worried about fatigue and that you have to replace them every so many passes. Also it's advisable to get a valve body with an extra neutral after 3rd to stop the loads being reversed on the rods when you coast after a run.
Anyway the motor was cleaned, re-ringed, new bearings, piston repaired, quick bottle hone, new valve springs, cam timing checked etc etc
We also replaced the flex plate (again) and upgraded to better bolts. I should have done this the after the first flex plate went since the land under the head bolts were all galled and damaged, they would have had difficulty holding on the the plate and the slight misbalance wouldn't have helped here either.
So the motor and box are all done.



Now whilst it may look like a million bucks , contrary to rumour this motor cost us $10800 ( Yep Dollars, I have the reciepts and thats rounding up ), since we re-used a lot of parts from the 528. The reason I explain is someone asked and had heard that I had £35,000 in the motor alone I wish

All we need now is the car back from the bodyshop which returned home after a 11hr trip (Traffic was diabolical ) from Chipping Norton on Friday night.



Paint is HOK Kandy burple, the night time pics do not do it justice. 4 coats of burple over 2 fine silver followed by 3 of clear. It's kind of like a cough sweet purple that changes to an electric blue when the light hits it right. I'll take some more pics when it's back together.
Were racing in 2 weeks time and I want to get it MOT'd (though thats not on the highest priority ) so I best be in the garage rather than tapping on keys
Thanks for reading.
Tig

Thanks for posting that update Tig.

Look forward to seeing more photos and reports through the season.

That is one fine looking engine I can see where someone thought it was 35k

Nice. Are you using studs in the heads? Are you going to use a different gasket than the Fel-Pro 1039? I have a set of the Fel-Pro 1009's,(4.441) and they seem to match up perfectly with my 4.375 bore I think you'rs are 4.500 bore gaskets right?

Hi Eddie and all.
Yep we use studs, KB blocks come with ARP stuff for every thread in the block. We tried an 1105 gasket but the waterway alignment was too far out for comfort. 1039 is a 4.560 bore. If we were going to change gaskets we'd probably go for Cometics since fel pro doesn't do a MLS gasket for our application. However, the deck and head surface isn't correct for Cometics so that would have to be done first.
Thanks all, for your interest.
Tig

Hi all.
Quick daylight pic from this morning, finish is exceptional. All interior is back in and all external trim fitted. A few little jobs like respraying back panel and new converter seal on 'box and we're ready to drop the drive train in.
Cheers. Tig

Thanks for the reply TIG! Hope you get er running to your expectations. It's a sweet package

well a big well done to tig (dave napier) all that hard work payed off running a 9.65 today front wheels up as norm the whole car just looks great, a bit more tweaking and i reckon at gary,s picnic you be running 9.50,s

Magic.

This must surely be the quickest Chally with an MOT on it in the UK? Anyone bettered 9.65?

Hi All
Well we had a great time , we PB'd 3 times over the weekend.
Our first pass was a checkout 1/8 mile pass and coast. 10.466 @ 91.41, we had broke out by a mile on a 11.99 dial . We also should have looked at the 330ft time which at the time we overlooked but was showing promise since it was our first under 4 seconds. The launch was loose and we struggled for traction so we thought it wasn't anything special. Anyway we got back to the pit and checked the car over, tightend the stuff that was trying to fall off, topped up the trans fluid then upped the timing to our normal 38 degs.
Our 2nd pass was slightly worse, a small wheelie followed by tyre spin and a move to the left, everything up to the 1/8 th was slower than the 1st run but we had gone 9.77 @ 138.23 on a 9.74 dial this qualified us at the no 9 position something we held on to all weekend. Back at the pit we dialed the timing back to 36 and tightend the other stuff up that didn't try to fall off last time. We also added more trans fluid since the shifts still felt soft.
3rd pass was a surprise . The car didn't launch well at all and I had to correct it just past the 330ft mark after moving left. Through the traps I noticed that we had an extra 100rpm showing on the tach. Back at the pit I was pleased to see we had run a PB of 9.66 @ 140.19. Talking to the guy we had run against he said he had noticed some smoke emerge as we slowed in the shut down. We removed the trans inspection plate and a trickle of fluid came out. Guess I must have over filled it so we drained 1/2 litre out and jetted up 2 sizes on the primaries for an experiment.
4th pass was slower, 9.70 @ 139.72 on a 9.65 dial, we were still moving about so we swapped the slicks round since I had neglected to mark them and went back to the base jetting. We would have to wait till morning for our 5th run. A few beers were consumed that evening

We were the 1st class out and we got major spin off the line but the car went strieght. Back at the pits we found we had too much tyre pressure but we had run a 9.71@ 138.77 on the previous 9.65 dial. We did the usual checks and noticed the carb had lost 2 nuts off the studs and was real loose . We checked the plugs and it looked like we had dodged a bullet, Phew . We checked even more stuff than usual this time but it looked like every thing else was settling down tightness wise.
We were hoping for another 4 qualifiers today but oil downs and incidents meant we were to have only one more. The car pulled a good wheelie and again 7100rpm through the traps. Cath and the crew were waiting at the end of the return road with big grins so I stopped and the ticket was thrust in my face, a 9.62@ 140.77 apart from the 60ft it was the fastest we had run across the ticket. Much more beer was consumed that evening .

The next day dawned cold and wet with a brisk 3/4 tailwind . It's eliminations, we had no 18 qualifier Mick Howling who had only qualified there due to damage.They had replaced rod and crank bearings overnight after a fractured oil pick up pipe and got out for eliminations, Fair play. It was a late start and it was still cold, we had no idea what to dial since we were fairly sure we would go quicker but the cold track temp should negate that. We decided on a 9.62. Mick had dialed 9.70. On the launch we seemed to leave at the same time I saw no red so figured I had the advantage on the leave. It was a good launch as I pulled for 2nd gear with the wheels still up and I began to reel Mick in. By the 1/8th we were neck and neck and the at 1000ft we got by and Mick slowed as he couldn't catch, It's an old tried and tested bracket trick and I realised he was trying to dump me since he couldn't take the stripe so l came off the gas too and coasted enough to keep a wing out in front.
Back at the pits I was astounded to see I had broke out, a 9.58 @ 134.25!
Everything across the board was the quickest we'd run . 6.100 @ 113.55 was 1/2 of a 10th up on the 9.62 run at the 1/8th. We were 7/100ths up at the 1000ft when we slowed so we figure it would at least have been a 9.55 had we not lifted and realistically a 9.52 . Mick had run 9.705 on his 9.70 dial so we visited his pit to congratulate the victor. We analysed the tickets and I had indeed caught the tree first by .01, he had a better 60ft to overcome that and also slowed at the 1000ft since he saw me coming quickly. He made the right decision, again, fair play.

Anyway we're back out at Gary's picnc where I hope we'll be able to back the 9.5 up. Nice to see you again Jim and thats a cool pic.
I have to come clean and say that at the moment, the car doesn't have a current MOT but will have one and be taxed for June. As far as I'm aware, Dunc holds the record for the quickest street legal Chally @ 9.44 but we're hoping to better that someday soon
Thanks all for your interest.
Tig

9.58 nice one tig , look forward to seeing you and cath at the end of the month, more 9.50,s for and hopefully 11,s for me

Very Impressive Tig!!

Thanks for the kind replies folks . Jim it would be a fantastic achievement to could get the Chally into the 11's you're very close to it at the moment and I think a gear change would do it. To do it on iron heads and such is all the more impressive. Cath was speaking to Jerry Cookson from Shakey today, they have a new track prep guy who is doing a fantastic job.(There was a lot of PB's last weekend) He says he's doing the prep on the Yanks weekend too so it looks promising.
A couple of pics for ya.
Cheers






Another good pic here on Eurodragster

tig you would make a great pilot with the way your chally lifts off the line great news with the track prep and about time to, mind it doesnt help when you get them front wheel drive recylcled U BOATS (vw,s) leaving damp patches on the line , great pics mate and the car looks in great shape

Jimbob it sounds like you are making the same sort of power as me with a similar engine spec.

I ran 11.92 at York but have yet to hit an 11 at the Mopar Nats. We should run a side by side best out of three that weekend.

sounds good to me dave, you prob read on MMA my last run was 12.2@111 on the 3.23 gears 3500 stall 28" tyre, so looks like im gona get the 3.91,s in and go from there , aint you running 500ci tho ?

You guys do well with what you got, best I could do with Iron heads, 950 carb and a .509 cam was 12.1 @ 111. This was with 3.91 gears and slicks though. Fair play

jimbob 440 wrote:sounds good to me dave, you prob read on MMA my last run was 12.2@111 on the 3.23 gears 3500 stall 28" tyre, so looks like im gona get the 3.91,s in and go from there , aint you running 500ci tho ?

No no. I have a stock stroke 440. The origonal stock six pack rods too. Mildly ported big valve 906 heads. KB pistons.
Nothing trick in there at all.

With my old hydraulic cam Linda Woodhead (when she was paying for a drive) ran a best of 12.2 at the Pod on street tyres with 3.91:1 gears. Actually that was it's first ever run with the engine at this spec.
On slicks we were slightly slower. Changing to 4.30:1 gears didn't make any difference despite an improvement in the 60ft time.

After that I improved the fuel delivery and adjusted the trans to run the 11.92 at York.
At the Nats following that the car felt strong but I miss-shifted first run and lost two rockers/pushrods on the second run. Been out of action since. That was 4 years ago.

Since then I have changed the cam to a solid lifter type of the same size. Which should result in slighly less HP and a peak at a slightly lower RPM. But more power from idle up to peak.

Dave-r, what was the MPH's?

Generally it was around 110mph but it always felt it was dropping off power at the top end. So I removed the air filter and increased the size of the fuel pipe. Plus the trans was maybe slipping a little so I looking into that.

That resulted in the high 11 at York which had a mph of 113.

On this rebuild I have again improved the fuel lines so I know they are no longer a factor. The air filter is now big enough for the six pack.
On the negative side I now have some water corrosion damage to the cylinder walls. So cylinder sealing is not as good as it could be.

Ideally i would like a little more mph. But if I have enough in there to do that remains to be seen.

This is the actual 11.92@113mph run. I am in the far lane.

The brisk tail wind probably helped a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79RK15UlAqY

How bad is the corrosion? If it's just surface rust with no pitting you can get away with light scotch clothing and WD 40. Best with the pistons out obviously but I've done it on my old 528 with the pistons in when we had head sealing probs with no issues.
113mph is right on the cusp of 11/12 seconds with a street and strip suspension set up. Did you have air fuel monitering then or a fuel pressure gauge or was it seat of the pants? these e body's have surprisingly high frontal resistance so I'm told.

Nah I have some areas of pitting Dave. Enough to catch your nail on.

I had some narrowband A/F monitoring and a mechanical pressure gauge but always forgot to look at them once I got going up the track.

At least now I can record mixture/rpm/MAP and read it once back in the pits.

It may be just aerodynamic effects slowing me down at the top end as you are suggesting.

How far down the bore? Top half is more critical for ring seal, you may get away with a clean up if its lower. If it's still bad and you feel it may damage the rings then obviously it'll need boring and/or honing which means pistons and/or rings. Not good
After cleaning the bores on the 528 there was a visable mark where the rust had been, you couldn't snag a nail on it, though you could before cleaning and it was about 1/3 of the way down on the thrust side. Never any oiling issues and cylinder pressures checked out fine.
Here's a pic

Yeah mine are all a way down the bore. I gave it a quick hone but decided against a re-bore at this stage.

Only a long run will tell how much oil it burns. As long as there are not clouds of it blowing out the exhaust on full throttle i will be happy enough.

dave-r didnt realise you run stock ci, and good ole six pack rods, i use them to but with heavy trw pistons cam is hydraulic 292dur 501"lift, and using an 850dp with torker sp,906 heads am modded but intake valves stock size, still using milidon valves tho, will be good to pair up your right they dont sound to far apart on power, oh and as im heavier than you can i have the first 10th mate

jimbob 440 wrote:oh and as im heavier than you can i have the first 10th mate

I'm slower than that on the light. My reaction time is usually 1.2 seconds.

i,m sure you be quicker than that dave ,dont know if you seen the pic but the shifter in your car got me inspired to fit a pro stick, havent looked back since much more positve feel

What did you use to fill the gap at the side? Foam?