[Apewalski70]

Salut Fbernard,
je vois que tu es du Mopar Owners Club de France alors je me permet de te parler français super merci je regarde demain sous le tapis et je prendré des photos des lames, j'ai envoyé tout les documents à Barry, en esperant qu'il trouve, après le principal c'est de savoir si c'est une R/T mais aparament c'est dur de trouver des différences.

[fbernard]

[Eh, let's speak English when we're visiting our friends from the United Kingdom of non-edible foods!! ]

The surest way, in my opinion, to know whether this car was an R/T from day one, is to sand the paint on both the R/T hood and the car shell (inside floor under the carpet for example) and find the base coat is the same color. This works only if the hood and car were never completely sanded down to bare metal for a paint job in the past.

Having torque boxes is a good indicator, but there are examples of having torque boxes on just about anything that came out of the factory (see ScottSmith's post here) :

I have personally seen factory installed torque boxes on every E-body combo the factory built. I'm sure not all of them were intentional, chalked up as factory mistakes etc. (example /6 hard top with TB's) but it happened.

So, not a sure thing. Torque boxes would look like this :
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index ... ic=62778.0


I would look the car over for any kind of collision damage repair or evidence of a rebody, because the Kentucky-issued VIN looks like a big flashing red light to me...
What could possibly be a legit motive for a VIN reissue, apart from some kind of scam, or a car that was totalled, rebodied with an innocent slant-6 plain Chally and reinspected prior to getting a new VIN ??

I would check under the seats and in the usual places for a build sheet just to make sure (if it's a rebody, there are few chances both cars would be LA-plant, so one might be Hamtramck-made)

Ape, you can find the VIN pad on the engine block on the lower passenger side, just at the junction with the oil pan.
See there : http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/ ... 1920_1.jpg

What you reported earlier are foundry markings, not stampings.
With both you will know the original VIN Number of the car it was in, and the date of the engine production.

You can also check to see if there's a door decal under the paint which would look like this :
http://www.totallyautoinc.com/nashbridg ... B%2013.jpg

And now, a little bit of French for us froggies :
Ape, tu es dans quel coin de France?
De quel couleur est ta voiture?

[dave-r]

Just to be clear, 383 R/T cars were not supposed to get the torque boxes. Only 440, 426 and Convertibles were supposed to get them.

[Apewalski70]

Oh sorry No decal on the door and nothing under the seat, I had find the casting number on the engine but not the VIN, I will look closer the engine, the shell and the hood, thanks for this information, and thanks dave it is noted.

fbernard :
dans le sud vers Avignon, elle est blanche.

[fbernard]

An R/T would have the grille and headlight bezels painted black.
Plain Challengers had them painted gray.

[Apewalski70]

Yes, maybe not the original, I hope

[dave-r]

That looks like a 1971 hood unless someone filled in the holes for the DODGE lettering.

[Apewalski70]

I don't think the RT hood is original, below the white paint is it black and the DODGE holes are not filled,just no holes, how do you see the difference betwin a 70-71 ?

[fbernard]

There are "crumple zones" underneath the hood (to help the hood fold in case of an accident), which do not exist on early (1970) hoods. I do not remember if they were introduced during the 1970 model year of for the 1971 model year.
Here's a picture of the two indentations in the sheetmetal under the hood which form the crumple zone. On an early 1970 hood, the sheetmetal there is straight.

[Apewalski70]

So I look under the carpet, the shell is red (like rad support and cowl aera) and the 4 speed tunnel is red too (picture below, the picture is from the passenger side) just the passenger side look like changed (driver side and 4 speed tunnel are red (black paint above). I finally find the engine VIN - 8C112195 - so not the original, my hood is like your Fbernard, I don't know if I have looked at the good place but didn't find torques boxes (see picture), but under the 2 rear seats I find two tag : 2942638-A LSI-M-2069 and 3447095-H LSI-M-2029 (numbers are unreadable on the pictures its for show you the type of tag)

[dave-r]

Those tags are just for the seats and don't really tell us anything about the car.

Measure the thickness of the front suspension torsion bars as accuratly as possible. Chances are these have never been swapped at the same time as the engine. It may give us a clue as to what engine was fitted originally.

[fbernard]

That steel strip tack welded to the tunnel looks like the tunnel was converted (and two parts butt-welded with a strip on top of both). The red lines on the pic below indicate the floor was cut, only the green line is the original joint between the floor and the firewall.
No torque boxes.
The carpet sound insulation looks remarkably preserved for a 40+ years item. Besides, it looks synthetic. The carpet was probably replaced.
The hood has crumple zones, so it's probably not original (except if someone can confirm crumple hoods were introduced mid-year?)
The black paint on the flor with the red underneath (rust-proofing, probably) indicates a prior restoration, which is probably when the auto tunnel was swapped to a 4-speed hump.

White is probably not the original color either, I don't think rear leaf springs and fuel lines should have body-color overspray on them.

[dave-r]

The hood has crumple zones, so it's probably not original (except if someone can confirm crumple hoods were introduced mid-year?)

No holes for the DODGE lettering mate. So not a 1970 hood at all.

The car has all the hallmarks of an old shell of a base model that has been thrown together and given a quick cheap paint job in order for it to sell for a good price.

But at the end of the day it is STILL a Challenger and there is nothing wrong with that. As long as you continue to perfect it, it will increase in value and just become a better and better car.

[Apewalski70]

Okok, yes all the interrior is new,seat carpet dash... I will look the torsion bar today, I think its the only thing to do for find if its a true R/T, if it was banana color, automatic...from origine I dont care, just for know if the seller lie me because he said its a true R/T. After I just have to put 4 brake discs and boost the 440 (275 HP for a 1973) I already have : torker 2 intake, holley carburator, comp cam lifter and camshaft, long tube exhaust headers and msd ignition.

[Adrian Worman]

Other good places to look would be inside the doors, under the door hinge plates, under the plastic vents on the bulkhead, really anywhere that even on a repaint that would get masked off.
This detective work is really interesting, even if the results are sometimes disappointing!

[Apewalski70]

Thanks I will look, really really interesting, its like if the car try to tell you a long story !

[Apewalski70]

The torsion bar make 2,5 cm (0,98 inch) Measured without bar removed so I thing its : 0,92 inch (good for 440 and 426)