The Dodge Challenger Message Board

Hello everyone! I am new here and wonder if anyone knows the mystery behind my engine and trans. First off I just stepped in poop with my find. 1970 Dodge Challenger R/T SE 440 4 Speed With 4.10 super track pack! One owner with 49,200 miles. JS29U0B373480 The engine and transmission have no partial vin stamped on them. One can clearly tell it has not been tampered with because the cutter marks are perfect on the machined tabs. I also had to scrape off 1/4 inch thick grease to find them. The scheduled build date of my car is 6/11/70 (on fender tag and door sticker) the casting date on the block is 5/18/70 with the numbers "S 440" 6 25 2 on the engine ID pad on top by the intake manifold. No "F" or HP. What is up with this? Is it possible these stampings were missed for whatever reason? Someone called in sick, behind sceduled production? etc... Or maybe the car never left the factory or dealership with the numbers motor and it was replaced as a combination. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this? Please help! Thanks Rick

Sounds like a replacement engine/trans to me. Odd to see both replaced though?

Did I mention everything else on the car is date or numbers correct. Intake and exhaust manifolds, starter, alternator, carb, etc... Very strange that there is no vin.

You dont suppose a prior owner sold the engine and tranny to someone else? The prior owner of my car sold the sixpack and the shaker grills. Whoops didnt see the one owner. Yes that is weird. Did they build ANY cars with a blank pad?

I have no reason not to believe the Lady I purchased the car from. Her husband died 20 years ago! The car was sitting in her garage with a state inspection (PA) reading 1980-1981. She said it was all original and they never had any major mechanical components replaced. I spoke with a few other people from respected sources and they both said I should not fear and it is probably original to the car. Can this be a new unheard of mistake by the Dodge workers in the factory? Who Knows?

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Wow, nice car R/T Rick. Have you thought about contacting Galen Govier? I am no expert on #s matching components as he is, he is however slow but methodical. Do you have information if the dealership still exists? Maybe they know something and have some old timers still working there that remember the car. The distributor "pad" is clean/blank? as well as the "pad" which has to have the vin as indicated by 1968?, federal law and is located on the passenger side of the block near the oil pan rail? If it left the factory that way wouldnt it be in violation of that law?

The distributor pad has "S 440" then under that "6 25 2" and nothing on the oil pan rail. The dealership has been gutted and in the process of renovation (not a dealer anymore)

R/T Rick, there is only one way to find out.

Check all the bolts around the engine/trans for markings.
Use a loupe for this (10x, the watchmakers and diamond-dealers have those) and have lots of light ! I am not kiddin' by the way. Check if there are markings in the opening-direction of each bolt, this is the left side of the flat area of the bolt-head. There will be markings if someone opened the bolts and screwed them back in, at least on a few of the bolts.

I feel like Sherlock Holmes now.......

I will try tonight to take a closer look at the bolts. As I said before, it appears that nothing has been tampered with and there is a heavy clumpy muddy style old grease on the lower engine block and all over the trans. Thanks for everyones input. Anyone ever seen or heard of this no vin stamping situation?

I would say warranty but I thought there was suppose to be a "W" up on the pad by the distributor, or is that Water tested? I thought there was suppose to be a W somewhere? Strange that the dates are so close unless it is a warranty gig.

Supposedly blocks were cast up to six months in advance so I wonder...

The transmission codes are PP833 3056 201 translates to dec. 9th 1969. Also no vin number. Date coded warranty items? I highly doubt it... but then again , you never know! Anyone else?

R/T Rick, from the info gathered so far it appears the dealer or the first owner had the original transmission and engine replaced with Chrysler "warranty" replacement parts. If JJ's theory holds correct there is no other explanation, surely for legal reasons it wouldn't have left the factory this way? It would be a first for me,(thats not saying a lot however), hope Dave chimes in on this.

IF the engine is a warranty block it will have an aluminum tag on the driver's side of the engine riveted to the block with the warranty information.

I bet a nickle that you do not find one.

Clean the whole passenger side of the block and look for the VIN just in case..... I have heard of one that was stamped VERY low, the VIN was actually stamped into the oil pan.

Best of luck on the seach, please keep us posted on what you find.

Barry

R/T Rick wrote:The distributor pad has "S 440" then under that "6 25 2" and nothing on the oil pan rail.

Usually there are either one or two digits before the displacement stamped on the id pad at the front of the engine.

S 440 is odd. One digit like that is usually the year code. But if it was this would be a 1962 engine!
However if they had a stock of warrenty engines would they stamp a year code?

So assuming this is actually the second digit then "S" will be for "Special" and warrenty engines were stamped like that according to my books.

"6-25-2" will usually mean 2nd engine built June 25th But what year?

Thanks for everyones input. I will take pics today of the ID pads and post them.

Alaskan_TA wrote:IF the engine is a warranty block it will have an aluminum tag on the driver's side of the engine riveted to the block with the warranty information.

I bet a nickle that you do not find one.

Clean the whole passenger side of the block and look for the VIN just in case..... I have heard of one that was stamped VERY low, the VIN was actually stamped into the oil pan.

Best of luck on the seach, please keep us posted on what you find.

Barry

Barry, with your knowledge and experience what do you think the answer is? Could this possibly be a huge factory goof?

I have no opinion yet, more info is needed, photos of all the numbers found and so on.......

Barry

Alaskan_TA wrote:I have no opinion yet, more info is needed,
Barry

Yeah. Barry has seen me make a tit of myself too many times.

dave-r wrote:

Alaskan_TA wrote:I have no opinion yet, more info is needed,
Barry

Yeah. Barry has seen me make a tit of myself too many times.

I bet you do that on purpose just to see if we are awake.

I will try and get pics up tonight of the numbers. My USB cable end broke off Wife tripped over it and pulled it out of the computer. What else would you need to help with this?

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You can clearly see "S 440" "6 25 2" on the top pad. Nothing on the oil pan rail, and 5-18-70 cast on the block along with the casting number. I even sent a pictur of the Dana Rear numbers to show how close the date is to the engine!

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If this doen't look like a factory error then call me nuts!! Just look at the 37 years of grease I had to scrape just to find it!!! Click on the high resolution pictures to enlarge, then hold your pointer in the lower right corner of the picture until the enlargement icon appears click onthat to really enlarge the pictures! So anyone got a clue? Please help! Here is the numbers on the rear.

Rick,
The engine and trans definately show a lot of dirt / grease build up. You need to clean the passenger sides of the engine and transmission completey, if the VIN numbers are there but stamped in the wrong place it will tell us what happened.

We need to know if they are there but in the wrong place or if they are not there at all, we have established that they are not where they should have been, so this is the next step.

I do love a good mystery........

Barry

The block casting date looks like the 13th or 18th of May or June 1970 (it is out of focus above the 440 casting number)

The stamping on the pan? says 13th May 1970

The stamping on the ID pad says it was built on the 25th of June.

Fender tag has a June 11th 1970 date.

June 11th 1970 was the scheduled production date, not the actual date the car was built, so this engine can be correct being built on June 25.