What do you think of this car • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 02 Feb 2003 23:08

I am new to this site and this is my first post.

I have been looking at this challenger. It belongs to the pastor of the church my wife and I attend weekly.
He is unsure about selling it because it belonged to his brother who bought it new in 1970.
What do you think of this car?
It has spent its whole life here in Arizona.

E44 318 2bbl 8cyl
D31 Light duty 904-A T-Flt
J = Challenger
H = base model
29 = SE
G = 440 4BBL
0 = 1970
E = LA production plant
136398 = production number

FC7 = Plum Crazy (Metallic) Paint - Body
H5X9 = Black Cloth & Vinyl Bucket Seats (Came with WHITE CLOTH)
000 = Full door panels, no upper door frame paint
312 = Scheduled production date; March 12 1970
157994 = Dealer order number

V1W - White Full Vinyl Roof
C16 - Center Console
C55 - Bucket Seats
H51 - A/C
M21 Roof Drip Rail Mouldings

M31 = Stainless Steel Belt & Hood Mouldings
R35 = AM/FM Multiplex Stereo Radio
V1W = White Full Vinyl Roof
V7W = White Accent Stripes
Y14 = Sold Car (1969-71)
26 = 26” Radiator

END

I have a few more pics if needed

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031279201201378402750.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031273033134571781747.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031272799812283605686.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031271805618804878202.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031274782334740788721.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031273815368370256209.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031277018540418308110.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031276034693516221626.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031275868575374271358.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031275951397024659396.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031271665979622575806.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031277593742610380695.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031274409471868637417.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031272356389745282150.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031277807802639782089.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031277385359104324737.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031272308599348751192.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031273456113206579333.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Feb/2003213140544575777487.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Feb/2003214400332010364320.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Feb/2003212420524610965623.jpg

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http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Feb/2003218604241780367046.jpg

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Feb/2003211927294594048883.jpg

I did a little snooping in the car for the build sheet, I looked behind both front seat backs and none were there.

Check out the Vin Plate, VIW is on 2 different lines! It Seams weird…. Any one see that before?
Also check out the seat material combo, the seats are suppose to look like this,anyone seen them before.

http://www.aarta.com/interiors/h5x9.jpg

The pastor has misplaced the keys so I have not been able to get into the trunk to see what may be in there.
I got under the driver side rear quarter and looked at the frame rail and gas tank. It looked like a little surface rust but not bad at all.
I wish I could get into the trunk!!!!!!!

What is you honest opinion?
The engine may not be the stock motor.
What would you pay?
What would you do with it?

Thanks for the reply’s

by **Jack T (Jackt)** » 03 Feb 2003 1:56

First, the G in the VIN means it was made with a 318, not a 440, and the V7W means a painted accent stripe rather than applied vinyl ones. As a fixer-upper, it looks like it has potential. The original color combo is a good one, but the engine is not what one could call collector-desirable. If it isn't a rust-bucket, I would stick with the small-block, building up the 318 and the 904 and keep it numbers-matching. It would be a head-turner and fun to drive. As for the build sheet, good luck finding one in an LA-built car. They did not put them in the cars at that plant.

The motor may or may not be the original, but from the photos, it appears that it is a small-block from the position of the dip stick, so it might be. Look for a stamp on the front of the block on the driver's side just below the head gasket. The displacement of the engine will be stamped there. Not being a small-block guy, I'm not exactly sure where to find the series number on your engine. Maybe someone else can help with this one.

One last thing - here we go again, Dave, with the vinyl roof code appearing twice on the LA fender tags. It seems to be typical, at least in 1970, that the vinyl roof code went on the tags twice at that plant, once in the first space of the third line where roof codes appeared on all the Challengers from both plants, Hamtramck and LA, and then a second time in alpha-numeric order in the last or next-to-last line of the tag or tags as happened on my R/T SE and every other 1970 vinyl-topped car that I've seen that came off the LA line.

What to do with the car is entirely up to you. There is some sentimental value since it was your brother's car. As for it's value, I feel safe in assuming it's not running or driving since the driveshaft is sitting in the passenger seat, so it's worth maybe $1500 as it is in my book. Is it still in Arizona?

by **Jack T (Jackt)** » 03 Feb 2003 2:05

OK, I finally caught the right photo - it's a 318 alright.

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 03 Feb 2003 3:32

Sorry about the G= 440, I know it is a 318 typo error.

The car belongs to my pastor, it was his brothers.

Yes it is still in Arizona.

Yes it is pretty rust free.

any new thoughts?

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 03 Feb 2003 9:43

The code for the seats is right too. That does look like black vinyl as the interior code calls for and the inserts will be grey houndstooth cloth although this is off the top of my head and I will have to check the code when I get home tonight.

Because the car is quite complete and rust free I would restore it.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 03 Feb 2003 10:58

Ooops! I didn't look at all the photos Jens! I didn't see the rusty roof.
It looks to me like it is just surface rust and will clean up easily. But your point is taken and it is hard to tell from photos anyway. If the roof rust is not just surface stuff then he should walk away from it.

The metal in the roof is quite thin so if a lot of metal has to be removed to get back to clean and rust free then it will be very thin indeed and I would be worried about it.

by **Jens (Jj)** » 03 Feb 2003 12:20

Thanks Dave, I thought I must go to the doctor today

Nick, do you know another Challenger for sale ? You should look at other cars first, compare and then buy the best car you can find.

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 03 Feb 2003 13:09

Jack, Jens & Dave
Thank you for the replys.
If you look at this photo of the car you will see the area of the roof that I was concerned about. I was sure that if the roof had problems it would be noticable in the area where the SE Embelms should be attached to the roof.
There are 2 mounting holes for the emblems in this area. I did alot of tapping and then banging with my fist in this area and all seems solid. I can only conclude that it is surface rust. I also did alot of the same testing of the roof from the inside of the car and had the same results.

He is reluctant to sell the car because of the family ties it has. His wife wants to clean up the land they have and asked him to get rid of all the cars he has (this is the only Mopar).
I will not make an offer to buy this car, I will wait until he has an idea of what he wants.
Per the conversations we have had about the condition of the car, he is well aware that it is in need of a total restoration and is in sad shape.
I am hoping that he tells me $400 to $800.00.

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auct ion/Jan/20031277807802639782089.jpg

anymore thoughts??????

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 03 Feb 2003 14:15

For less than $1000 I would be tempted. But, as you know, it will need a full back to metal strip down. Every part will have to be pulled apart. If you have to farm this sort of work out then the car might not be worth it. If you can do most or all of the bodywork yourself then it would be worth it. It is going to cost a lot of money though. Engine rebuild, suspension rebuild, wiring, new interior, dash pad, etc etc.

Somebody should do it. Just be sure you are the right man for the job before you take it on.

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 03 Feb 2003 14:49

Dave - thanks again,
I can do quite a bit of the work myself except the paint.
Please your thoughts on this:
1. If the engine is not the original motor, what value is this car with a complete resto?

2. If the engine is the original motor, what value is this car with a complete resto?

3. Is the color combo, with the white top, white stripe, SE package, B/W interior and 318 engine, a rare find or a common Combo?

4. Would a R/T clone ruin this car?

5 I have a 511ci engine sitting on the stand in my garage that was to go into another car (B body)
that could easily go into this one??????

thoughts, also thank you for the time

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 03 Feb 2003 15:28

Well someone else will have to advise you on the cars value when restored because I don't have a clue! I can tell you how much I would pay for it where I live but that is not going to help you.

With it being a 318 car I would say that the value will be little effected by an engine swap. It will hold it's value the more stock it stays though - up to a point.

Some clone cars do fetch a lot of money because of the lack of real versions out there and also because of the high cost of the real thing.

I would either a) restore it correctly with any small block and have a nice classic looker/driver.

Or b) (and I have to admit to being more tempted in this direction) Stick the 511 inch engine in this mother and build it as I please because you can't put a price on FUN!

You just need the correct engine mounts to fit this (400 or 440 based?) engine. The k-frame was the same on Challengers for all V8s from the 318 to the Hemi.

by **Christer (Christer)** » 03 Feb 2003 16:58

Any SE Challenger is worth restoring and collecting if you ask me.
If the car never has left Arizona, it should be more rust-free than most Challengers around.
If you intend to keep the car, I would choose the engine that you will be most satisfied with! Keep in mind that changing the engine will be a far more expensive route (that is, if you do not use the engine that you already got). Good luck!

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 03 Feb 2003 17:41

I guess my main concern would be to restore this car only to find out that it would not be worth the time and money. I would hate to have
(an example)$10,000.00 invested only to find the actual cars worth to be $5,000.00.
Sure, I could take it, strip it and turn it into a race car for the drags, but that seems shameful to do so. I already have a nice race car project in the works.
This is why I have all these questions.
I would love to have a nice driver, not a show car.
I sold a 70 challenger R/T, 440ci, 4 Speed, Dana
car 6 yrs ago to payoff the IRS. I have regreted that since then.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 03 Feb 2003 19:50

I am sure if you did a good job you could get more than $10K for it. Anybody got any ideas on current US market values for this guy?

by **71_DEPUTY (Johnm)** » 03 Feb 2003 22:22

DEPENDS- A NICE SE WOULD GO FOR 10-20K- BIG BLOCK WOULD BE AT THE HIGH END IF THE WHOLE CAR WAS IN GOOD SHAPE!!!

by **71_DEPUTY (Johnm)** » 03 Feb 2003 22:37

Nick- the car does look to have some good restoralbe points! 318 looks orginal- look at the left valve cover-factory.

it has a neat int colors, slapstick console, air cond- it should have tinted windows? SE with the overhead consolete- nice if all the rust is just surface you really have a great stating point!!
if the engine don't run- $500-1000.00 is not bad for it- at least you can get parts down there at the local bone yard- up here- none to be found-parts cost a fortune because they have to be brought up here- anything still around is scrap or rusted so bad that when you move them the car literlly falls apart due to the winter salt.

buy it!!!!!!! if I was down there it wouldn't last 2 mins!!! LOL

john mac

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 03 Feb 2003 23:33

John, The motor may NOT be an original.
The current owner told me that he thinks his brother may have broke the original and pulled another 318 from the wrecking yard.

What did you mean when you said " look at the left valve cover-factory"?????

The owner is still undecided if he will sell or not. According to his wife the car is going!!!!

This has been going on for the last 3 months.

by **Jack T (Jackt)** » 04 Feb 2003 1:33

Nick, I sort of lost sight of the idea that you were going to buy the car if it were for sale when I wrote my reply - my apologies. A solid SE car is a good starting point for an R/T SE clone. I noticed that all the SE trim was there, even the hard to find stuff. I would can the 318 and find a 383 as a minimum engine. Upgrading a 318 car to a better engine can only help the value. You have the flat hood - you might want to consider making it a shaker car as well.

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 04 Feb 2003 3:53

Jack - No need for apologies.
I wish this would also come to an end.
I have been talking to this person since before Holloween on purchasing this car.
I asked him this past sunday that I to see in the trunk. I have been under the back side and the trunk floor looks good in the area that I could see, but I need to see the inside.
He is looking for the trunk key. I am hoping there may be other orininal parts in there.
I am hope I find the SE emblems and the original radio in there....with my luck, there gone....

One more thing
I have an extra 8 3/4 rear sitting in the garage that should work out real well under it instead of the 7 1/4 that it has.
I also have a Dana in case I get serious.....

by **Jens (Jj)** » 04 Feb 2003 8:17

Nick, the more often you go there and ask about the car, even more the owner like to keep it. He may want to rise the price for it also.

You better go there with dollar bills in your pocket, tell the owner you want to buy it now or never. Show him the dollars or put them on the rusty roof. Then you have a deal or he will kick you out. I think 1.000 US$ is a good price for it. Buy it !

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 04 Feb 2003 15:17

Jens - I am reluctant to do as you say. If this was an ordinary seller then yes your way would be the best way. The person selling the challenger is the Pastor of the church that I belong to.....

by **Mike Lanouette (Mikel)** » 04 Feb 2003 16:06

Hi Nick,I have a 70SE with a 318 c.i. motor.I can tell you that my car was appraised at $8,400.00 in 1988.It has the original motor & trans.As of the value of theses cars It would depend on optional equipment and accessories.We do know that only 5,858 JH29 was built.I dont know what my car would be worth today (10,000-12,000)I guess it would be worth what I sell It for.It is a challenger so for that it is worth fixing.Good luck what ever way you go.

by **71_DEPUTY (Johnm)** » 04 Feb 2003 16:24

the valve cover has the orginal decal on it- so even if it is a repalcement it looks like due to the factory decal is still on it that the motor hasn't been opened up- you could have it torn down as the engine specs are still factory..

I think you couldn't go too wrong in buying it!

tell him that you want to see it restored and not rotting away- their made to drive and you will take care of it!!! give him a ride when you are done and there will be smiles on his face!!!!!!

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 04 Feb 2003 16:53

Last sunday he said that If get the car from him he would like to be involved in fixing it....
That is a good sign....

by **71_DEPUTY (Johnm)** » 04 Feb 2003 22:08

THAT THE IDEA- HE WILL SELL IT IF HE KNOWS THAT SOMEONE WILL RESTORE IT BACK TO DRIVE IT!!!!

GET HIM TO HELP YOU ON THE INTERIOR- THAT WILL BE EASY TO DO!!!!

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 05 Feb 2003 15:43

71 You may be right.

Does anyone see anything that may be missing on the car that I should inquire about?
Radio
SE roof emblems

by **Nick Sciortino (Nicksort)** » 18 Feb 2003 19:25

Just an update,

He is still thinking about selling it and his wife is still pushing him to sell it.....
I wish it would come to an end soon