The Dodge Challenger Message Board

HI mates
A mate of mine can help me with an XV Stage One front suspension kit and a Stage One brake kit for around $3500 and I won't have to pay shipping costs, seems like a good deal and a good package for the car. What ya reckon? I could add subframe connectors, a rear kit to it and have an excellent chassis set up for street use.
I never intended to invest in a system of this quality but it seems like a good deal. I don't think I could use other brands and put together a similar package, but I'm sure you lot will know if and how.
Cheers, Adrian.
P.S went to a AACI local car show with my car yesterday at Billing for the first time in 3 years, thanks for all the help, could'nt have done it without you

Good deal. But I can think of better ways of spending $3500?

Ild like to hear em Dave if you got time Bear in mind I still got 318 front and rear spring rates, no roll bars and weedy brakes, even tho I got discs, if I could replicate maybe 75% of that kits performance for a lot less I'd be well happy

I'm out of touch with prices but I think I spent a lot less than $1000 years ago on the sway bars and springs to make my car handle.
I know I spent $700 converting the front brakes to large discs using some used (steering kuckles), some re-conditioned (claipers) and some new (discs, pads and master cylinder) parts.

If I were you I would look at what you are getting for your money at XV and then price up the same or similar parts at PST, Firm Feel, ESPO (Springs'n'things), and even maybe the other expensive place - Hotchkis.

Make sure you are not paying over the top for a package you could put together yourself for less is all I am saying.

yes i agree with Dave, those kits work well but for alot of money,and if you do some research you can get the factory components with some mods,ie tubular uca,sand lcas, and adjustable shocks,and swaybars ,and upgrade the brakes.

i bet you can do the upgrade for less than 2 k,

again i like those kits but for the money i feel that by comparison the coil over kits only make the car handle little better(not alot) than the upgrades i just mentioned,so to spend 3.5k or more for a little better car you might want to spend it on other things

if you want i can make a short list and put it together as to what i would do

That would be helpful Drew. I tried to price up a set of tubular u+l c.a and decent torsion bars, adj shocks, f+r sway bars, decent bushings and a good front and rear disc brake conversion and I got to near $2500 and without shipping. I know that XV stuff is very pricey but the quality looks excellent. You're both right tho', if it does'nt make a useable difference on the road its a waste.

Some people on moparts, who have been autocrossing for years, have used relatively easy-to-find parts : big torsion bars, swaybars, F+R, good shocks...

The Hotchkis kit seems to sum up all that with good success :

- 1" or bigger torsion bars (1.14 in the hotchkis kit),
- Front and rear sway bars (Hotchkis are good, and tubular so not too heavy)

You can get some of those parts from other places.

Last post about this was here :

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/sho ... in=6141337

Adrian Worman wrote:That would be helpful Drew. I tried to price up a set of tubular u+l c.a and decent torsion bars, adj shocks, f+r sway bars, decent bushings and a good front and rear disc brake conversion and I got to near $2500 and without shipping. I know that XV stuff is very pricey but the quality looks excellent. You're both right tho', if it does'nt make a useable difference on the road its a waste.

Adrian, I dont race or autoCross ,,but I did use a lot of the Heavy Duty Suspension parts and 1.14 T-Bars, 20:1 Fast ratio manual steering, F&R sway bars, poly bushings, ect from Just suspension and Firm Feel. It's a stiff ride, noisy, but no body roll, steers straight and tracks well in the corners. I like it! It's not as expensive as the Coil sprung front ends but it's a slight bit heavier than the stock stuff. Now I just wish I had the brakes to match! I really liked Drew's set-up in his Challenger, it worked very well and wasnt too far from stock! he did have some killer brakes though

Just as I had suspected, my mates deal of the century on the XV parts was'nt exactly what he promised but because I got myself geared up for some mods I'm going to do a few steps at a time.
1; Mopar perf or similar big block torsion bars
2; Polygraphite front rebuild kit probably Just Suspension
3; Heavy rear spring hangers and bushings as above
4; KYB or similar gas adj shocks
5; Front sway bar kit
What do you think for a basis?, I can always add the rear sway bar and springs a bit later, then a disc brake upgrade, maybe subframe connectors. Drew said he would do me a list of mods, Eddie says his car rides and handles very well,

I would be wary of using Mopar Perf. rear springs. I used Firm Feel, but springs&things or Just suspension's are good too. I used the Edelbrock IAS shocks but there are better and more expensive ones out there. Definitely go with sub frame connectors, wish I did. But the biggest change will come from increased contact patch. Or simply put wider meats and bigger wheels. Like I said, Drew has a nice 'recipe' to follow and doesnt deviate to far from stock, his Challenger handles like a slot car in the fast and treacherous Denver Mountains at speed and looks cool doing it. Having great brakes builds confidence Everything else looks good Adrian

Me and Drew both use QA1 adjustable shocks. They are on the expensive side but boy do they make a big difference to the car. You can tell they are quality as soon as you get one in your hand.

Drews car has stock 383 suspension with the shocks adjusted stiff.

My suspension is about 30% stiffer than stock 440/426 suspension and I have front and rear sway bars.

I use the shocks on a soft (2-clicks) setting for normal driving which is slightly softer than the KYB shocks were.
3-clicks is about as stiff as the KYBs and the car corners very flat but feels all the bumps in the road.
On the strip i adjust the rears very stiff and the fronts as soft as possible for better weight transfer.

I don't think you are thinking enough about under-steer or over-steer.
If you get the spring rates wrong in relation to front and rear you will have one or the other. Drew found that adding a rear sway bar made him oversteer. That is because his front spring rates are not high enough.

If you go too high on the front spring rates though you will under-steer.

dave-r wrote:Me and Drew both use QA1 adjustable shocks. They are on the expensive side but boy do they make a big difference to the car. You can tell they are quality as soon as you get one in your hand.

Drews car has stock 383 suspension with the shocks adjusted stiff.

My suspension is about 30% stiffer than stock 440/426 suspension and I have front and rear sway bars.

I use the shocks on a soft (2-clicks) setting for normal driving which is slightly softer than the KYB shocks were.
3-clicks is about as stiff as the KYBs and the car corners very flat but feels all the bumps in the road.
On the strip i adjust the rears very stiff and the fronts as soft as possible for better weight transfer.

I don't think you are thinking enough about under-steer or over-steer.
If you get the spring rates wrong in relation to front and rear you will have one or the other. Drew found that adding a rear sway bar made him oversteer. That is because his front spring rates are not high enough.

If you go too high on the front spring rates though you will under-steer.

yea Dave is right since then i have backed of my front shocks just one click to 5 and now the rear needs a rear sway bar,once i do that i will most likley have to back off the front more, but the point we are rtying to make is to do minor mods ie, new urethayne bushings,adjustable shocks,and if you really want to spend more money at least get the tubular uca,s ,and lcas,and a new stage 3 firm feel steering box


steering box stage 3 firm feel 329.00

http://www.firmfeel.com/e.htm

UCA,S performance suspension technology 329.00 pair

http://www.p-s-t.com/c-606-tubular-control-arms.aspx

LCA,S Cap auto, 400.00 pair,dynamic aluminum struts 180.00 pair

http://www.capautoproducts.com/strut_ar ... a053965d3a

QA1 adjustable shocks summit 139.99 a piece

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HAL-RC1538P/

Factory sway bar front 1 1/8 inch 279.00

http://www.firmfeel.com/swaybars_e.htm

eurethayne bushing kit 100.00

http://www.firmfeel.com/urethane_E.htm


This does exceed 1 k but for under 2 k this is what i now have for our gc barracuda,

However on my chally i have tubular uca,s stock lca,s stock front sway bar, and qa1,s and a firn feel stage 3 steering box

my car is a 383 R/T so it did come with a little better than a standard 383 suspension so my torsion bars are not as big as a 440 set up ,(currently running a 440 aliminum heads,waterpump,alloy brackets and pullys, , wilwood brakes ,this combo makes the front end lighter than a stock 440),

If you go with the set up i have here on my chally its a little cheaper,and will work just fine, i just want to try a slightly different set up this barracuda to see what it will do im am sure it will improve thing alot

Thanks for the advice mates, some really helpfull stuff in there especially Daves point about balancing the spring rates f+r. My torsion bars are 318 std units, so clearly I should install big block ones to cope with my 440, but are rear spring rates the same for a small block car that came with std suspension as for a big block car? My 1st job then would be f+r springs and poly bushings, followed by a front sway bar and quality shocks. That should get me a good base to build from if I want to go further.
I plan on 17" wheels, ARE 500's, and my mate runs a tyre shop and she owes me a big favour so at least the rubber won't cost me anything
Steering feels a bit notchy, has loads of play and squeaks plenty so that will need a good look at the same time, must try adjusting the cross shaft this weekend, but I think I might need to replace a column bearing and the adaptor to the steering box.
Cheers, Adrian

No the big block cars had stiffer rear springs too. No idea what the spring rates were though.

dave-r wrote:No the big block cars had stiffer rear springs too. No idea what the spring rates were though.

This is straight out of the MoPar perf. Chasis book: Production leaf springs have a rate of 85 to 130 pounds per inch. 1970-74 E-Body segments are front=22 inches long rear=35 inches long. The MoPar SuperStock Springs are 160 lbs./inch ESPO springs and things or Firm Feel or Dave/Drew/Fabian can advise as to which ones you should key on for your particular combo. I just used the stock 440/Hemi Leafs on mine with the stock pinion snubber. It spins excessively now that it's tuned right.

I wish I could find my workings out from when I did my car.

I used the Super Street Mopar book as my main source of information and formula. I spent months working all the spring rates out (I had plenty of time as I had no money) and had the rear leafs made to my own spec but I seem to remember they were close to Super Stock spec (about 170lbs?) only of the correct length (not the short A-body length that SS springs come in) and I factored in the rear anti roll bar too.

dave-r wrote:I wish I could find my workings out from when I did my car.

I used the Super Street Mopar book as my main source of information and formula. I spent months working all the spring rates out (I had plenty of time as I had no money) and had the rear leafs made to my own spec but I seem to remember they were close to Super Stock spec (about 170lbs?) only of the correct length (not the short A-body length that SS springs come in) and I factored in the rear anti roll bar too.

that is important to know, i did buy ss springs and it raised the rear of the car,

and then i built my own set using 2 sets and i like you dave had alot of time and no money so i spent the time to disassemble the leafs about 4 or 5 times until i came up with the height i wanted,

but the springs on my car now are new r/t 440 springs,and i like them the best,
now i need to put the T/A bar i have sitting on the floor but i kinda like the hotchkiss bar a little better and i might just sell the T/A rear bar,

but i do need a rear bar of some sort now that the springs actually work

I did find some interresting info several months back, on the Eaton spring website catalog.
They list applications and spring rates, and also leaf count.

There's lots of info on their website :

http://www.eatonsprings.com/bustingsusp ... rr2010.pdf
http://www.eatonsprings.com/springtech101.pdf

http://www.eatonsprings.com/eatonperfor ... prings.pdf
http://www.eatonsprings.com/68-70dodge.html
http://www.eatonsprings.com/71-74dodge.html
http://www.eatonsprings.com/70-74plymouth.html

That is some information
The spring rate table is mucho help, I identified my rears at 85lb and I measured the torsion bars at .880", massively undersprung for a big block I know, so my 1st order will be a set of f+r springs and a poly bushing set, Firm Feel looks to be best allround package and cost.
Can't wait to get stuck in on that job now I know where I'm going with it

Just e-mailed someone called Dick at Firm Feel with a list of parts to quote for, let you know the outcome and any recommendations he has. I assume he will ship to England no prob

I have had a couple of steering boxes from Firm Feel so you should be OK.

I'm considering adding a steering box to that order Dave,it makes sense with the shipping costs to do it all in one go, seem to get good feedback on them and their products

Normally you have to supply a core steering box though.

Oh I did'nt pay tthat much attention to it, good job you said, will ask Dick when he replies