The Dodge Challenger Message Board

I am planing to upgrade my suspension, at the moment i am running all polyurethane with KYB gas schoks, stock (thinnest) sway bar in the front and no sway bar in teh back. HD leaf springs and 0,96 inch torsion bars.

My idea is to change UCA to tabular made by raileymotorsports :

http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/ ... t=0&page=1

Change teh shocks to QA1 double adjustable

Change front sway bar to 1 1/4 and add 3/4 rear sway barfrom firm feel :

http://www.firmfeel.com/swaybars_e.htm

add heavy duty tie rod kits also from firm feel :

http://www.firmfeel.com/tierods_e.htm

As for the steering i am stiil using stock power steering. Will appreciate any suggestions from you guys, have anybody tried that ? Or any other options ?

I would not bother with the thicker tie rods. You don't need them.

Otherwise the only other thing you might want to get is a firm feel power steering box.

Set your camber angle to one degree in at the top. That, along with good tyre selection and your new sway bars, will make the biggest difference to your cornering.

For caster you only really need two or three degrees combined with a little toe in to make the car stable at speed in a straight line.

I used the heaviest duty bolt on parts I could get my hands on. Wojpi, I have to agree with Ol Dave on the Reilly Motorsports Alterk tion. It's a lot of money for little gain,(other than the weight reduction). The suspension kits from Just suspension including their heavy duty tie rods, strut rods, thicker shackles, huge phat T-bars, even chrome moly lower control arm shafts are all available for your car.They are not that much more expensive than the 'standard' components and they will help a little bit. The biggest incremental gains however will come from as Dave pointed out Wheels and tyres. I am very happy with my 'stiffy' suspension. you can feel it in the seat of your pants

The Alterkation thing is not better than the stock k-frame and in fact probably adds to the unspring weight and increase the front track enough to make wheel selection a problem.

Its real use is in the fitting of big block engines into A-Body cars where it is very handy indeed.

There is NO advantage to adding one to a E or B body car unless you are running equal tuned length headers in a Drag car.

I have yet to hear of a R&P system for "our" cars that does not have steering geometery problems (such as bump steer) and if you want more caster simply add offset UCA bushes.

I was thinking about heavy duty tie rod because it happened twice already that my toe setting changed during cornering and i had to reset it again. as to teh alterkation kit i am not thinking about it as it exceed my budget. So sway bars, tabular uca, how about QA1 ?anybody used it ??

Wojpi wrote:I was thinking about heavy duty tie rod because it happened twice already that my toe setting changed during cornering and i had to reset it again.

That sounds like there is something faulty in one or both tie rods. It is impossible for them to slip unless the threaded section is damaged.

There cannot be many people that corner harder than me at times and the toe on my car is fine.

But if you HAVE to change them anyway you may as well get the beefy ones.

Wojpi wrote:I was thinking about heavy duty tie rod because it happened twice already that my toe setting changed during cornering and i had to reset it again. as to teh alterkation kit i am not thinking about it as it exceed my budget. So sway bars, tabular uca, how about QA1 ?anybody used it ??

I have single adjustable QA1s on now, and I like them a lot (I can turn them down for a soft ride on the road, and simply turn the button at the track to harden them). The only drawback is that they're already pretty hard at the 4th click (out of 12). You really need stiffer torsion bars to be able to use a firmer setting on the shock (or else the shock does the bar's work, giving an ugly ride).

I'm taking them off the hardtop and will put them on the convertible (along with the Reilly UCAs and strut rods I also have).
I'll be using double adjustable QA1s instead on an AlterKtion (it's interesting for some specific uses to have different settings in rebound and compression).

I would advise you to get shock boots along with the new shocks before installing them though. Once they're on, you will not feel too happy about having brand new shock pistons totally exposed to road grime and debris. Especially knowing the price of the shocks. (I bought them afterwards, they're still on the shelf).

Reilly UCA are pretty well-built (they need to be painted ), but I would take a look at another model that seems to allow caster and camber settings without UCA removal (http://www.magnumforce.com/magnumforce_ ... l_arms.htm)
Don't know them, though.

Only other thing I might add is Reilly's strut rod kit. Very sturdy piece, (probably no weight gain on this one), and only one direction of travel for the LCA. http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/ ... ctid=16139
This is purely overkill for a street car though.

Does anybody know this :

http://www.unisteer.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... e=MOPAR+BE

Yes. And like the others you will end up with terrible suspension geometry.

OK my final decisions :

1.Xv motorsport body stiffening system :

http://www.xvmotorsports.com/products/d ... fm?nPID=11

2. Firmfeel fast ratio pitma and idler

http://www.firmfeel.com/fastrati.htm

3. Firmfeel rear sway bar 3/4 inch TA/AAR style

http://www.firmfeel.com/swaybars_e.htm

4.QA1 double adjustable shocks

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/s ... 9_-1_10075

Now the questions :

1. UCA which to choose :

-firm feel : http://www.firmfeel.com/tubuca_e.htm
-magnumforce : http://www.magnumforce.com/store/detail ... rch=&Page=

or

http://www.magnumforce.com/store/detail ... rch=&Page=

- riley : http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/ ... 250&page=1

-capautomotive : http://www.capautoproducts.com/Control_Arms.html

2. Is it good idea to change strut rods ?

3. Is it worth to pay 265 USD for front sway bar from firm feel if pst gforce cost 180 ? As far as i know only firm feel makes rear sway bar ta/aar style so there is no option here.

4. recently i have replaced stock leaf springs with heavy duty ones from Mopar, now back of teh car is siting very low, and additionaly if anybody sits in the back i hear rubber bump stops hitting the body, must add that with no weight in the car leaf spring is almost flat.

Any other suggestions for some other mods will be highly appreciated. I am going to spend my this year budget on that so i want to avoid any stupid expense that will not change a lot.

You should have got your rear springs from ESPO "springs and things". I have heard bad reports about the MP springs.

In fact avoid MP stuff as much as possible. Most of it is crap.

You could have the springs re-tempered and more srch put into them. You should be able to find a place to do it locally to you.

Yeah, Dave is right about some of the parts having 'problems'. I bought a new Crate engine from them in 1997. It has performed flawlessly and is very impressive in it's power output. I used their 440/Hemi Rear Springs bought from Mancini racing, they too have so far been fine. There has been many issues with "defective parts" but I have 'escaped' that so far. Since you live so far away I would go with Daves recommendations.

well i just bought some stuff from Firm Feel myself, including a Stage 2 power steer box (3 levels of firmness available from Police box which is already slightly firmer than stock) but i havn't got it in yet. Will keep you posted on how it feels. I also bought some Koni shocks (not gas), a 1 1/4 inch front sway bar kit, 1" torsion bars and the 73 Pitman arm to suit the box. All this stuff cost me nearly AUS$1000 to ship to Australia by airfreight. Hope its worth it. I was advised by the tech guy at Firm Feel to increase castor to maximum for best front end stability. They also sell tubular upper control arms which have extra built-in castor adjustment for this very purpose.

Dave,
you wrote about "unisteer"
"Yes. And like the others you will end up with terrible suspension geometry."
What do you mean?
Do you have any bad experience with them?
I want to put this rack & pinion into my Challenger when I finish the bodywork.

The different parts of a suspension and steering system have to line up in a particular way in order to work correctly. This is called the "Steering Geometry".

If the steering points and not in correct alignment with each other you get odd steering problems. Bump steer is the main one where up-down suspension movement causes the steering to track left/right. Ackermann angle is not affected I don't think.

I think bump steer is caused because the steering rack is mounted too low. Possibly to far back as well. It is not just the steering effected though as it also effects cornering ability.

A simple explanation I just found is here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_Steer

I have heard people tell me this is the case with these systems. I have not tried them myself because I do not see the need even if they did work.

These are two ton cars with suspension designs that date back to World War 2. Fitting R&P steering is not going to turn them into nimble F1 cars. The original steering, in good condition and adjusted up, is probably as good as the car will get. Even then you have to sometimes adjust the angle that the idler arm sits at in order to completely remove bump steer.

But it is your car and you can do what you like. Just be aware that you need to think about these things.

No R&P steering in this car;
http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive ... p-pix.html

Other things affecting bump steer;

http://www.moparaction.com/tech/quest1/SPECIAL_K.html

http://www.moparaction.com/tech/quest1/JACKED.html

airfuelEddie wrote:. It's a lot of money for little gain,(other than the weight reduction). :

You are right but right weight balance of a car can be very helpfull with superb handling. I have done some reserch and figured out that BB Challenger front axle "weights" around 1070 kg(2358 lbs) and the rear one is only 720 kg ( 1587 lbs). this was measured on a car that had already battery relocated to the trunk and Al intake. My car is SB so my front is alraedy lighter, weight gain for car with power steering on alterktion is around 65 kg (143 lbs) + i plan to add fiberglass TA style hood that weights only 6 kg (13 lbs) then Al heads on the engine is another gain. At the end i think that front weight can be reduced by more than 100 kg( 220 lbs). Considering Sb car front can be lighter by around 150 kg (330 lbs), what can have significant influence on cars handling. I do not know if i am going mad chasing handling with me e-body, but why not ? I will keep posting results of my upgrades when they will be done.
If you have experience with that kind of changes please warn me before i sth crazy

I have a weight ballance of 55% front and 45% rear on my 440 Challenger. Same as a BMW 3 series.

Hi Dave, how did you get such a great weight distribution with your 440? Is it a 727 or manual? How much alloy did you use in the up front mechanicals and did you purposely keep the rear 'heavy' to help the balance?

My 71 Chal 440 has Alum heads, intake, water housing etc, Kaisler- tremec 5 speed (very light!), eng compartment battery and heavy front sway bar, power steer (no air con) and an 8 3/4 posi rear.

What is the best way to measure front/rear weights to work out distrib?

Also, have you found 55/45 to be an ideal combo? Sorry for all the Q's

steve

I have about the same distribution on mine (approx. 925kg on the front and 750 on the rear). It was measured on a friend's technical control scales (equivalent of the MOT in UK).
Modifications then were :
- aluminum heads & intake (Indy 440-1)
- stainless steel headers
- a fiberglass hood (ugly but light)
- battery relocated to the trunk,
- lightweight starter,
- lightweight fan (MP viscous fan kit)
- manual steering box,
- 1"1/8 sway bar (pretty heavy)
- aluminum wheels (15" Torque thrust D back then)

I'l try to bring it to the scales again once it's all finished. There has been quite a bit of work this last week, and I still have at least one week's worth of work on it.

Still got iron heads and steel hood/fenders. But almost everything else is lighter than stock at the front or removed. 'Glass front bumper is the only light body part. Weight was measured with me in the passenger seat.

Battery is in the rear of course. I have not removed any weight from the rear. In fact the bigger steel wheels and tyres as well as the battery have added weight there. That helps a little of course.

The weighbridge scales I used might not be that accurate. So my percentage might be off a little. However if I get to the EuroNats this year there is a guy there that will weigh each corner of your car for a small charge. That will be very accurate.

Front/rear weight distribution is not too critical as long as it is somewhere roughly near 50/50 and the suspension is set up to compensate correctly.

For Drag cars you want as little weight up front as possible of course. Up to a point. Because if you go too far you have a wheelie exhibition car.

Try filling the front tyres with Helium.