[MLMFLCN]

Hello,

I have stock torsion bars (.86, I think) in my 318 equipped 72 challenger. I am dropping a 440 in it. I have read much on this and researched prices. The best deal I found was on a set of .96 bars. Will these be too much of an increase, and therefore, too stiff? Also, any other mods needed to the rear of the car if I do this? It is going to be a weekend street car, but I don't want a sloppy feel in the suspension. Thanks for any input.

- rich

[dave-r]

Too stiff is very subjective.

Some Americans would say your existing bars are "harsh". Most Europeans would say "soft as custard".

I personally use a 1-inch thick (201lbs/inch) bar up front with a 1 1/8th diameter sway bar.

The stock 440 and Hemi bar is 0.92 (144lbs/inch) from memory so you are only slightly up from standard anyway at 157lbs/inch.

Indeed you MUST also increase the spring rates at the rear of the car to suit. Otherwise your car is going to underster like crazy. How much so is going to be tricky to work out. But I would start with rear springs from a 440 and also add a thick rear sway bar. A bit bigger than the sfactory size 3/4 inch at a guess. A set of KYB shocks would help too.

[MLMFLCN]

Thanks for the response dave-r.

I have a set of KYB shocks ready to install all the way around. Anyway to determine the rear spring rate from part number, etc? I am really trying to avoid messing with the rear leaf springs, so would a .92 bar be a better choice overall?

Thanks again for the "education".

- rich

[MLMFLCN]

Oh, forgot to mention too, that the car does not have a sway bar in front or back. I am sure that this will impact as well. I will probably add on the second round of modifications, just trying to get the car mobilized this year. Thanks,

[dave-r]

I wouldn't drive a car without a front sway bar if you paid me. I think it is dangerous. Probably OK if you drive it like a tractor.

I don't think I made myself clear enough before. If you change the front suspension or weight you MUST also change the rear or you will make the car even more dangerous than it is now. You don't need a part number. Just get some 440 springs.

To measure the rear spring rate you can place it on a smooth surface with the eyes on the floor and the arch in the air. Measure the distance from the center of the spring to the ground. Then get someone to stand on it and re-measure the distance and find out the difference. Last of all measure the weight of the person you had stand on it.

Now with simple school math you can work out how many pounds it took to compress the spring one inch.

[Jon]

The .92 bars under my 340 don't seem too stiff at all. I think the 440 weighs about 150 lbs more. The .96's would be my choice plus the front sway bar and firm up the rear springs as Dave said.

Jon

[Eddie]

I know this was posted a long time ago but here goes my bolt-on setup for a suspension that corners like a proper car should(asian, european ect..),no offense to the American way of thinking which is plush, soft,compliant ect...My 70 R/T has a lot of Just Suspension,Moog,Firm Feel parts on it. The front torsion Bars are from Firm Feel,(1.14), The Sway bar is 1.00 and the front control arms have the Just Suspension Chrome-Moly Lower control arm studs,Strut Rods are 50% larger and chrome moly, with black poly graphite bushings. The rear springs are also from Just Suspension XHD with their H.D. rear Shackles, the rear Sway bar is the Firm Feel Frame hung unit, The factory bar is a badly engineered piece its mounted below the shocks, hangs below the differential ect..The FF rear bar is modeled after the AAR Cuda/Challenger T/A piece. For shocks I went with the Eddies I.A.S. shocks, they are cheap and work very well. I do like the Konis and the Penske/XV shocks but they were almost a grand for all four, the eddies were only 240.00! The Manual steering box is a Firm Feel 20:1 box and requires great effort at low speed,( not for the faint of heart), the 16:1 would virtually be undrivable in congested slow turning traffic and would be almost impossible to park. I dont think I could drive a 16:1 in town at all. On a race track is another story. The wheels and tires are as follows: Ralley 15"x7 wheels. B.F. Goodrich,(what else),P245 60 15s. I am very happy with the way the car drives, it corners with very little body roll and is very neutral,(flat), going thru the corners, I used to ride bikes and my bikes would steer with the throttle thru the radius, my challenger feels the same way,(almost), its a huge improvement over a stock based sixties car. I am at the limits of my tire size and really need fat low profile tires with a 15x10 size but I wont go there, I think they look weird with the fat tire look. Hope this helps somebody contemplating modifying their E-bodys suspension, I forgot to say that there are four holes to drill 3/8 in the rear frame for the FF sway bar.

[DPhil]

This was a great summary - gives me something to shoot for when I finish the body work on my 72.

Right now I am running a 318 a friend of mine built for a 69 Cuda race car. It was non-competitive, but since it blueprinted, has Kieth Black pistons and other mods etc, I don't plan to upgrade any time soon - saves cost for body and suspension. Since I'm sticking with a small block, does what you did with your car translate to mine? I have power steering now and plan to keep it - I started out with the stock manual steering and it only made sense if running the skinny original tires. Too hard to park otherwise.

Also, my car was built without any sway bars - I slow way down when going off the highway on a tight ramp. Funny how a car this wide tips so far... I think I would have to change out the lower control arms if I wanted to install a factory front sway bar. Does the Firm Feel front bar require the factory sway bar control arms?

BTW - you Europeans are right about suspension - I used to drive an '84 GTI and I still prefer the tightest suspension I can afford in my day to day car. Any modern sports-oriented car presents a major contrast with a stock low option Challenger (except maybe in acceleration...)

Thanks!

D

[dave-r]

the rear Sway bar is the Firm Feel Frame hung unit, The factory bar is a badly engineered piece its mounted below the shocks, hangs below the differential ect..

Actually I thought all the factory bars were the same as the T/A AAR etc. Mounted to the frame with the ends going to the axle.

Until recently you could only get aftermarket bars that fixed to the axle which increases unsprung weight. Something I had to do due to lack of choice at the time. My rear bar is 3/4-inch but I sometimes think a 7/8-inch would have been just a tiny bit better.

I am surprised you went for a stiffer front suspension and a relatively weaker anti-roll bar. I went the established way with 1-inch torsion bars and 1 1/8-inch anti-roll bar.

I am sticking with the cheap gas shocks for now. Just adding shock extensions on the rears because they don't extend far enough.

[dave-r]

Forgot to say. I have the same manual steering as you Eddie. But I do like fat wheels. So 15x8 on the front and 15x10 on the rear.

I do not like big diameter wheels though. Up to 17 inch is OK with the right wheel but bigger than that just looks stupid to me.

[Eddie]

Thanks DPHIL, call on me anytime you need info! I love a tight or stiff suspension, I think the vehicle should be balanced and drive agressivley through the turns instead of simply existiting with it! Our cars were not engineered to "deliver" in the twisties, however with the current suspension tech out there it can be improved dramatically. Yeah, Dave I agree with the tire and wheel combo. 17'' Billet specialties Ralleyes or Magnums are in the future but way into the future!!$$ or lack thereof!! But you are right. I am at the limits that a 15" with a p245 bf goodrich can handle!! I went with the Ross Brothers recommendations Dave. they said the back end will be a little light,(easy to fishtail), so in another words it would understeer easier. It handles very well around the curves and with the 20:1 Manual box has great driver feedback and a tight steering feel. Remember also I have aluminum heads, water pump and housing and intake, this chops off 100lbs? up top and high. BTW Dave, the extra money for the I.A.S. Eddies shocks are WELL worth the money these babies are the closet to konis, Fox,Penske ectt Dampers you can buy for under 250 for all four!!

[72 Challenger (Hans)]

What Dave said, a front swaybar makes a big diference.

Years ago I had HD leaf package in the rear with Koni shocks and a std swaybar. In the front I had 340 t-bars, Koni shocks and the std. swaybar. Well, that was back then...

Now I have no rear swaybar (couldn't fit one with the minitub / custom widt axle) and dragshocks in the rear. In the front I have a lose swaybar, 6cil. t-bars and dragshocks too.

So quit a difference, but the biggest difference I could feel was when I loosened the front swaybar. And then I don't even have the weight of a 440 in the front. But now, after more then a year I'm used to it.

But if I ever build another streetable 9sec. racecar I will rebuilt the chally using all stiff components to make it handle like I don't know what car.

[Eddie]

Hans it sounds like you could mount the Firm Feel rear sway bar if you wanted to. It is designed off the original frame mounted T/A and AAR cuda sway bar. The way I drive, I wouldnt be without one! If you Drag however....

[ianandjess]

eddie wrote
The way I drive, I wouldnt be without one!
i know what you mean eddie corners are just damn good fun
cheers ian

[christer]

What Dave said, a front swaybar makes a big diference.

Years ago I had HD leaf package in the rear with Koni shocks and a std swaybar. In the front I had 340 t-bars, Koni shocks and the std. swaybar. Well, that was back then...

Now I have no rear swaybar (couldn't fit one with the minitub / custom widt axle) and dragshocks in the rear. In the front I have a lose swaybar, 6cil. t-bars and dragshocks too.

So quit a difference, but the biggest difference I could feel was when I loosened the front swaybar. And then I don't even have the weight of a 440 in the front. But now, after more then a year I'm used to it.

But if I ever build another streetable 9sec. racecar I will rebuilt the chally using all stiff components to make it handle like I don't know what car.

You are defenitely more wild than tame, Hans. Nothing wrong with that. Do what makes you happy. Have you taken off the front brakes too (like the racers in the sixties)? I bet you haven´t reached the fourties (your age) yet though?

[72 Challenger (Hans)]

Hi Christer,

I certainly did take of the front brakes, but more in a way of swapping them out for another set. Now it has a set of wilwoods on the front as needed the std disc brake setup for my wifes car, 72 Duster, which be bought and restored last year.

Also I got a new converter, one that is made for my combo. A PTC unit. Although I did have some ignition troubles last year with a result of not be able to rev higher then 6100rpm I did got a new best. So far it's a 10.64@128mph whjile shifting/finishing 500rpm lower the I normally did.

And as for the fourties...yes your right...turned 25 this year...like new compared to some of you guys

[Eddie]

WoW, you dudes are kids!

[christer]

And as for the fourties...yes your right...turned 25 this year...like new compared to some of you guys

25? Almost brand new then! Congrats, I think!?

Seeing it another way: You have to live with the fact that many of us are about twice as experianced as you are

[rockanimal]

Hans, see it this way: you probably have more time behind the wheel ahead of you than most of us...

[Eddie]

Im so old I forget.

[ianandjess]

yea that time behind the wheel is behind us

[Jon]

I found having an operational, dependable, car gives you the confidence to drive it a long distance (and return home) adds to "the time behind the wheel".

[JDB840]

Well some of us are young, I'm 26. That's why we ask so many questions, the older and more experienced people will almost always help us out.