Damn Ignition, but I can start her from under the hood!!! • 2 • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **RedRaven** » 17 Aug 2007 13:23

Well its happening again...mention the car and they think your minted!!

I went an auto shop to get a test on the starter just to be sure..the guy tells me there is a problem with it so he will take a look I said fine but I wanted a price on repair before any work was done..I phoned just there now and he tells me it will cost 180 for the part to be replaced..the conversation didnt even get to labour or VAT because I told him to forget about it...Im going there now to pick it up...

by **dave-r** » 17 Aug 2007 13:37

If you take anything else to some grease monkey to get tested I will come over there and kick you right up the backside.

You need a cheap voltmeter. It does not even have to be accurate. I can tell you how to use it. All you are looking for is voltage at the starter and work back-over. Think of electricity as a river - you are looking for a break in the flow. You can start upstream or downstream. The point at which you have volts on one side but not the other is where your problem is.

Have you pulled out the bulkhead connectors and cleaned them up yet.
If you havent I swear I will kick your butt from one county to the other. :twisted:

by **Eddie** » 17 Aug 2007 18:31

dave-r wrote:If you take anything else to some grease monkey to get tested I will come over there and kick you right up the backside.

You need a cheap voltmeter. It does not even have to be accurate. I can tell you how to use it. All you are looking for is voltage at the starter and work back-over. Think of electricity as a river - you are looking for a break in the flow. You can start upstream or downstream. The point at which you have volts on one side but not the other is where your problem is.

Have you pulled out the bulkhead connectors and cleaned them up yet.
If you havent I swear I will kick your butt from one county to the other.

Dave, you should have been in the Prison system! You are a natural! :thumbsup:

Red, if those parts store monkeys are anything like they are over here you will get taken to the cleaners every time! I like the "flows like a river analogy" from Dave. It helps one understand the flow of electrons to a given potential. :thumbsup:

by **RedRaven** » 17 Aug 2007 20:54

I tell ya Eddie you guys got the whole Jedi thing goin on Mopar style....Use the Force...or should it be Use the Fuel!!!

Dave R .....A.K.A...... Darth Mopar!!! :twisted:

airfuelEddie wrote:
dave-r wrote:If you take anything else to some grease monkey to get tested I will come over there and kick you right up the backside.

You need a cheap voltmeter. It does not even have to be accurate. I can tell you how to use it. All you are looking for is voltage at the starter and work back-over. Think of electricity as a river - you are looking for a break in the flow. You can start upstream or downstream. The point at which you have volts on one side but not the other is where your problem is.

Have you pulled out the bulkhead connectors and cleaned them up yet.
If you havent I swear I will kick your butt from one county to the other.
Dave, you should have been in the Prison system! You are a natural! Red, if those parts store monkeys are anything like they are over here you will get taken to the cleaners every time! I like the "flows like a river analogy" from Dave. It helps one understand the flow of electrons to a given potential.

by **Eddie** » 17 Aug 2007 21:43

Thats because we've been there done that. I wish I had a "friend/mate" when I was young and spent all kinds of money and time/blood sweat, to get things right. Hope you dont have the same bad experiences, only good ones with your MoPar! :mrgreen:

by **RedRaven** » 17 Aug 2007 22:21

Its a learning curve..I guess Dave just doesnt want it to be an expensive one for me....Fair play to him...

I guess he is in for big trouble when I see him in Santa Pod next year...

....hes gonna have to polish off a big bottle of Irish Whiskey...the poor fecker!!!! :twisted:

quote="airfuelEddie"]Thats because we've been there done that. I wish I had a "friend/mate" when I was young and spent all kinds of money and time/blood sweat, to get things right. Hope you dont have the same bad experiences, only good ones with your MoPar! :mrgreen:

[/quote]

by **Eddie** » 17 Aug 2007 22:42

Poor Dave having to drink a bottle of BushMill's Irish Whiskey. I would rather imbibe on Abysinthe! :mrgreen:

I sure hope Dave is able,(medically), to "party" with you by then. But I wouldn't count on it. He's been thru the "ringer"

by **RedRaven** » 18 Aug 2007 9:54

I have the perfect solution my man....Why dont you come to santa pod next year and you can hold Dave up at the bar!!!

airfuelEddie wrote:Poor Dave having to drink a bottle of BushMill's Irish Whiskey. I would rather imbibe on Abysinthe! I sure hope Dave is able,(medically), to "party" with you by then. But I wouldn't count on it. He's been thru the "ringer"

by **Eddie** » 18 Aug 2007 11:44

Trust me. We would have to hold each other up! It would look gay. :lol:

I would like the Santa Pod idea! I have already been "bugging" my brother Tom about it. He's the World Traveler in the family and just got back from the Mid-East after 3 years,(working).

by **dave-r** » 18 Aug 2007 14:48

Sheeet. I was drinking Scotch whisky when I was still at school in the mid-70s. In my 20s I would have 8 pints of beer or Snakebite (lager/cider mix) five nights a week.

Then my stomach waved the white flag and started getting its own back. :lol:

Modern medicine is wonderful these days though and I can drink as much as I like when I am well.

But lack of drinking funds and infrequency of pub attendance has lowered my ability to drink large amounts considerably. Just as well really. :roll:

I still liked a "wee drop" of a night time before bed before I became ill. Just for medicinal purposes you understand. :wink:

I have just recently found I am well enough to have a drink of the stuff again without ill effects. :s017:

by **RedRaven** » 18 Aug 2007 18:01

Then as the captain of the enterprise says...make it happen...

airfuelEddie wrote:Trust me. We would have to hold each other up! It would look gay. I would like the Santa Pod idea! I have already been "bugging" my brother Tom about it. He's the World Traveler in the family and just got back from the Mid-East after 3 years,(working).

by **RedRaven** » 18 Aug 2007 18:04

Ha Ha snakebite...thats such a rockers drink.....!!!!

dave-r wrote:Sheeet. I was drinking Scotch whisky when I was still at school in the mid-70s. In my 20s I would have 8 pints of beer or Snakebite (lager/cider mix) five nights a week.

Then my stomcach waved the white flag and started getting its own back.

Modern medicine is wonderfull these days though and I can drink as much as I like when I am well.

But lack of drinking funds and infrequency of pub attendance has lowered my ability to drink large amounts considerably. Just as well really.

I still liked a "wee drop" of a night time before bed before I became ill. Just for medicinal purposes you understand.

I have just recently found I am well enough to have a drink of the stuff again without ill effects.

by **RedRaven** » 26 Aug 2007 20:55

Ok so I got a tester and connected it to the battery and started to test everything..I was getting a glow from the ballast resistor and the starter relay..I also test the ignition coil and got a glow from one side but not the other...Dave I tried the bulkhead connection and got a glow from most of the points but not all.

I ran out of time and had to report for duty with the war office....

by **Eddie** » 27 Aug 2007 21:23

Wayne, good job. Do you have a factory service manual? You need the list of "parameters" such as resistance and voltage values, a wiring diagram and the values listed for the circuit or wire you are testing. You can do some checking, but to find out what the factory did, or to restore that particular circuit, a service manual is especially usefull. :thumbsup:

I drink soured milk at bedtime. :s019:

by **RedRaven** » 27 Aug 2007 22:02

Service manual..check...wiring diagram..check....soured milk...check...aaaarrggghhh...that tastes terrible dude you krazy...!!! :mrgreen:

airfuelEddie wrote:Wayne, good job. Do you have a factory service manual? You need the list of "parameters" such as resistance and voltage values, a wiring diagram and the values listed for the circuit or wire you are testing. You can do some checking, but to find out what the factory did, or to restore that particular circuit, a service manual is especially usefull. I drink soured milk at bedtime.

by **Eddie** » 27 Aug 2007 23:40

It's sounds like you are on the right track. You must know however, your "tester" will let you know only two things. Power or current is either flowing to the wire/stud/lug ect.. or it isnt. This can be useful. It wont let you know how much resistance is in the circuit though. Like a spark plug wire, it has a known resistance like 50,000 Ohms per wire length, end to end. As far as the coil, you will need a digital volt OHM meter to "measure" the amount of resistance across the primary,(+). side of the coil and the secondary side,(the spark plug wire into the coil). If you are using an original type Chrysler Essex or prestolite coil,(they have similar but different OHM resistance values), they are checked for resistance this way.

by **dave-r** » 28 Aug 2007 9:19

OK.

Lets start again and try to break this down.

There seem to be two problems here.

1/ The starter does not crank from the ignition switch.

2/ The engine fires in the "start" position on the switch but dies in the "run" position.

Is this correct?

OK so if the engine fires in the start position then you have voltage to the ignition switch. You also have voltage to the end of the ballast resistor that also connects to the +ve side of the coil.
Make sure that is the case to start with.

In the "run" position you should have voltage at the other end of the ballast resistor. The resistor lowers the voltage to the coil. So at the end of the resistor that connects to the "run" connection on the switch you should have about two volts more than on the end that connects to the coil.
Check that out.

On the starter problem.
Make sure your transmission is in park or neutral (try starting it in both if you have not already) and check that the safety switch on the transmission is connected and working. It has three pins on it. Usually there are three wires going to it. Two black and one brown with a yellow tracer mark. The brown one goes to the starter relay (that bunch of wires on the inner fender) and the other two go to a connector on the engine side of the bulkhead.
Make sure that connection is good and that the switch works.

I can't remember if to start the two wires on that connector from the neutral safety switch have to be open circuit or short circuit. Can anyone confirm which?

When you have the results post them here and we can go to the next stage.

by **Eddie** » 28 Aug 2007 13:25

On the starter relay Dave, I think it's got to be shorted across the relay. How is he going to check voltage comparisons with a simple test light? Good instructions Dave!! :thumbsup:

by **dave-r** » 28 Aug 2007 13:53

airfuelEddie wrote:On the starter relay Dave, I think it's got to be shorted across the relay. How is he going to check voltage comparisons with a simple test light? Good instructions Dave!!

How bright the bulb glows? :roll:

by **RedRaven** » 28 Aug 2007 14:02

Ok Guys as it stands this is the current situation.

1. When I turn the key nothing happens.

2. When I make a connection at the starter relay, the starter kicks, but thats it no engine crank.

3. Prior to changing the starter relay ,ballast resistor and new denso starter, when I made a connection at the starter relay the engine cranked aslong as somebody pumped the gas pedal and held the key in the start position. When they let go of the key and it went to run position the engine cut out.

4. So as I said I replaced. a) the starter relay, b) the ballast resistor, c) the starter relay, d) the starter motor.

5. I put a test on the Holley ignition coil and I got a light on one of the connection but not the other, I got a light on the starter relay, the ballast resistor and most of the bulk head wiring but not all.

6. I may be in a better position tonight as a friend is calling over to me he is an auto alarm installation specialist he does clifford etc. so he is going to run tests on all of the connections for me, he has all the bells and whistles to test the wiring. Any suggestions for him guys....

by **Eddie** » 28 Aug 2007 19:28

I had a similar situation on a car I was working on. The "problem' was the fusible link someone had wired into the ignition system. Fusible links are easily detected by their spongy/stretchy feeling.

by **Eddie** » 28 Aug 2007 19:38

First make sure your battery is fully charged. If you turn the key and nothing is happening after all the parts replacement, I would say to look at the ignition switch itself. Get your manual out and find the 8 pin white plastic connector below the steering column, disconnect/connect this and have your friend probe the individual circuits.Let us know. BTW, make sure this connection isnt loose! This could be your problem. Also any ground wires should be checked. If I recall correctly, there should be 12 volts to batt connection. 12 volts to IGN 1 NO volts to IGN 2 and 12 volts to Start. Then the key is turned to run and the values change to 12 volts to IGN2 if I recll correctly. Maybe Dave can jump in to asssit.

by **Eddie** » 28 Aug 2007 20:06

Another thing I have concluded, if the starter motor operates and cranks the engine with the key on and you jumped it with the piece of steel across the starter relay, then it has to be the ignition switch/wiring to that area,I would think.Some useful info Wayne: your coil should read the following, KEY on engine off, off 1-2 ohms resistance on the primary side,(the + positive lug), 9k ohms to 12k ohms on the negative lug, remove the wire from the coil and with the engine cranking probe the hole, it should pulse with your test light.

by **dave-r** » 28 Aug 2007 20:39

That is right Eddie. But you have to check the neutral safety switch first as that is the most common problem.

The wires that go to the switch (according to the diagram in the manual)are;

RED = feed from battery
Brown = Ignition 1
Dark blue = Ignition 2

But I am sure from memory the brown/blue colours are the other way around. i am sure they are the other way around at the ballast resistor. I think the manual has that wrong.

by **dave-r** » 28 Aug 2007 20:41

Don't get confused with that other long connector that hangs under the column. That one is for the turn signals and stop light.

by **RedRaven** » 28 Aug 2007 21:42

Ok so I had my mate test all the wiring...

I found some wiring with a connection that leads nowhere I will attach a photo maybe you guys can id for me...this was located next to the starter relay..but the connection didnt fit anywhere..the connection appears to be female..

The good news is that it appears not to be in the steering column thank god..

He reckons the problem is somewhere in the harness as he ran a wire from the starter relay directly to the ignition wire at the base of the steering column and when he turned the key to start the starter kicked and the engine cranked..and just my luck the battery was low. so it didn’t fire up..just as you said it eh Eddie make sure you have a full battery..

I have the battery on charge at the mo so I will try again when it’s full

As Dave said it may be the bulkhead connectors...

now back to this unidentified wire...here is the pic

The neutral safety switch what will this do Dave...

by **Eddie** » 28 Aug 2007 22:09

After the battery is charged do this, clip a wire with the "alligator clips on the battery positive. The other end to the coil positive lug, then attempt to start it. If it starts and runs fine you know the ballast is bad or wired incorrectly. This is for testing only unclip it immediately after your findings because the ECU and coil will fry if you leave it on for some length of time. Momentarily, a few minutes, wont hurt it. Just thinking out loud Wayne, I still think Dave's diagnosis is correct,(your's too). :thumbsup:

by **dave-r** » 29 Aug 2007 7:39

dave-r wrote:Another common fault is simply a bad connection on the bulkhead connector. They are very prone to bad connections there.

So check that out before buying new parts.

16th of July I posted that. :s023:

by **dave-r** » 29 Aug 2007 7:42

Wires do not run nowhere. They all run somewhere. So where is the other end connected to?

If possible tell me what colour the wire is.

It looks a bit like the wire for the brake warning light from the switch in the brake line.

by **RedRaven** » 29 Aug 2007 9:59

Yes indeed you did!!! :mrgreen:

dave-r wrote:
dave-r wrote:Another common fault is simply a bad connection on the bulkhead connector. They are very prone to bad connections there.

So check that out before buying new parts.

16th of July I posted that.