The Dodge Challenger Message Board

Hello,
Would I be right in thinking that ATF runs out of the torque convertor and into the pan when the car is not in use ie overnight.
Reason is that after sorting out the ignition problem via another thread with Dave,s help another dinger has manifested.
After leaving the car overnight or longer I would normally start it and leave it warm up for a couple of minutes before engaging reverse or D whichever is the case.
Yesterday when reverse was engaged a lot of clattering came from the bowels so I shut it down and left it for an hour or so before restarting.
It still clattered in neutral but quietened down as the engine warmed.
I thought I had dropped a bigend or similar, but the engine idles and runs fine with no adverse vibrations.
I took the car for a 10ml drive and only heard a slight rumble from below once when under load.
Back in the garage I drained the oil and checked the magnetic bung for unwanted guests and all was clear no slivers etc.
Refilled with new oil.
I removed and checked the plugs and all were burning fine.
I left the car on stands over night.
Started it again today and the same rattle is there so under I get with the stetyscope screwdriver to my shell like listening for where its emminating from.
It seems to be coming from the rear of the sump closest to the bellhousing you would think a marble was being thrown around in the oil.
It quitens and disappears as the engine warms and gets a couple of revs so the bigend or similar is a non runner methinks.
I am of the opinion that a strator blade or similar in the T/C has broken loose and rattles like mad when the car is started cold with some ATF not being present but as the fluid runs into the T/C it acts a a buffer and stiffles the racket.
The noise is being transferred up the crankshaft making it sound as if it is coming from the sump.
Am I nuts or what ?

You sure it is not a flex plate to converter bolt coming loose?

Take off the instection plate on the bottom of the bellhousing and check the bolts for marks and make sure they are tight.

These bolts should have a very shallow head. Thinner than on a normal bolt to stop them hitting the back of the block.

dave-r wrote:You sure it is not a flex plate to converter bolt coming loose?

Take off the instection plate on the bottom of the bellhousing and check the bolts for marks and make sure they are tight.

These bolts should have a very shallow head. Thinner than on a normal bolt to stop them hitting the back of the block.

I had thought of that Dave but had figured if this was the case the bolt would shear on catching the block or failing that the rattle would be permanent, but it does stop after she runs and heats up.
On removing the inspection plate bottom 6mm retainers it appears to be still wedged up between the starter motor face and bell housing which is another daft idea. The starter bolts may even go through the plate which means that has to be removed to eyeball the T/C. ?

You inspect the flex plate to torque converter bolts by bringing each of the four bolts into view one at a time by rotating the engine.

They can rattle on start-up and hard deceleration and not all the time if they are the wrong type of bolt.

When you start saying bolts are metric sizes (6mm???) I start to worry. There should be NO metric bolts on that car whatsoever.

dave-r wrote:You inspect the flex plate to torque converter bolts by bringing each of the four bolts into view one at a time by rotating the engine.

They can rattle on start-up and hard deceleration and not all the time if they are the wrong type of bolt.

When you start saying bolts are metric sizes (6mm???) I start to worry. There should be NO metric bolts on that car whatsoever.

I am so used to dealing in metric sizes at work I see every thing as metric.
These retaining bolts are most likely 1/4"
Cheers.

I got a chance to to have another look at this about an hour ago.
Started the car and it clattered like a good one.
Up on stands and removed the 1/4" bolts at the bottom of the inspection plate.
The plate is still held in position higher up wedged between the starter motor & bell housing so I inserted a large flat head and prized it away at the base about an 1 1/2" to cast a beady on the 4 flex plate bolts.
The first one was visible so I locked a ring spanner on same to check for slackness.
It was tight as I was rotating the crank by pulling on the spanner.

With a socket & ratchet on the pulley crank nut and pulling anti clockwise from under the car I rotated the T/C and found the remaining 3 bolts in place and welded to the Flex plate.
These were not welded here as I know the previous owner well.
He imported the car direct to Ireland from the US in 2007 as a resto job so I can only assume the company he purchased from did this for some reason I.E. the bolts were drifting loose or the threads were gone.
As the bolts look to have about 3mm clearance from the back of the block I do not think they are causing the racket.
Incidentley the flex plate is a large circular disc and not the square type I had expected, as the box is listed as an A727.
Either way the fact that these retaining bolts are welded does not instill one with confidence so I think a new T/C and maybe a box rebuild is on the horizon.
Mr Watts be the man Dave ?

Mr watts indeed unless you want to have a go yourself. It is not that hard a job.

The thing is that it is called a flex plate for a reason. It moves. The bolts need to have a special very flat head. If someone stuck normal bolts in there they will catch the edge of the block.

I can't think of anything else in the transmission or converter that would make that noise. So if it is not those bolts then I am at a loss as to what it might be.

DINGBAT wrote:The plate is still held in position higher up wedged between the starter motor & bell housing

So that isn't on correctly either then. It fits on after the trans is mated to the engine and removes easily. Normally.

dave-r wrote:

DINGBAT wrote:The plate is still held in position higher up wedged between the starter motor & bell housing

So that isn't on correctly either then. It fits on after the trans is mated to the engine and removes easily. Normally.

They look like the proper flat head bolts Dave but the fact that 3 of them are actually arc welded to the flex plate is definetley dodgy.
The cover plate I know is not right as I had a 68 Plymouth Satallite Sport prior to the Challenger and know that was removable as you describe above.
Thank,s for your help it,s much appreciated.
Cheer,s

i once had a fly wheel come loose from the crank only a little bit but rattled like mad i thought my engine was done maybe this can happen with an auto to is it possible you flex plate is loose on your crank worth a look?
cheers ian

Good point.

What would be interesting is to know whose flex plate you've got attached to the crank. All Chryslers (V8'S, 6cyl, 727 trans., 904 trans) used the same flex plate stlye, and none of them are round. Chrysler supplied 4 different models for all engines except the Hemi. It has it's own flex plate. AMC (Jeep & American Motors) used a round flywheel in most cases, and in a lot of cases the flywheel had a ring gear on it, the converter did not.
If the vanes , the sprag, or the bearings in the converter were coming loose or falling apart, you would find metal in the transmission pan, just as you'll find metal in the converter when the transmission fails. Remember the transmission and converter share the same lube system, they are not separate as some folks seem to think.

transman

The solid round ones are aftermarket. I recently fitted one myself.

I have not used the car recently with this racket etc.
However Monday evening I removed the 2 no starter bolts and withdrew the starter and the bell housing inspection plate came away easily.
It appears to be the proper inspection plate for the small block 340 motor with a large appeture for the starter to run through and all the fixing hole line up etc.
The flex plate is a B&M jobby with cut away edges I would assume for balancing, I would think that the T/C would also be from the same people.
I drained & dropped the oil pan & everything was nice and clean with no unwanted guests.
I adjusted the reverse band and refit the pan & refilled with new fluid.
I had not got a replacement filter so the existing will suffice for the time being.
I dropped the exhaust to adjust the kickdown band & removed & reset the shifter cable which is an after market push/pull type.
Started the car and the racket still emminated in Park & Nuetral but as before when warmed & driven is disappears.
With the bands adjusted the car drives well with sharper shifts etc.
The local Mopar wizard in Dublin Mark Malone came to look see with his pronged stetascope & box of electronic vibration sensors.
The sensors showed no adverse vibs in any part of the auto or engine other than at the T/C area, the prong also cofirmed this.
He is of the same opinion as first thought that the innards of the T/C are compromised and can rattle in P or N when there is no fluid being pumped in but once in D with fluid being pumped & circulating the racket is stiffled.
Failing that the only other cause may be that the flex plate may be cracked where it mounts to the crankshaft.
The box will be coming out for a look see and fingers crossed hopefully it is either of the above as it works quite well & a complete rebuild should not be required.
Cheer,s

Thanks for the update.

If the oil and bottom of the pan were clean you shouldn't need to rebuild or flush the trans.

Usually if something brakes there will be material in the pan so I still can't imagine how the converter could break but still work OK when warm and not leave traces in the oil?

I am looking forward to hearing what you find when you drop the box.

Mo is a good bloke to have helping you.

I dropped the trans today, its killer of a one man job especially when trying to work between the headers and exhausts.
The exhaust from the headers back is one complete system with a welded in cross pipe and welded hangers etc with no u/bolt joints whatsoever clever engineering or what.
The 727 is a numbers matching unit but must have had work carried out at some point in its life as gaskets with the trade mark Transtec can be seen on the rear housing joint.
The TC looks quite new with the only I/D mark being on the ring gear 47339k05 & CH RG 130.
When googled the only info on this is that the ring gear is a Sonnax part
Chyrsler Ring GEAR 130 Tooth.
It looks as if it is an 11" TC, the I/D of the ring gear is actually about 11 1/4"
The Flex Plate looks ok also with no cracks or warps visable.
I am a little disappointed with this as I hoped something would jump out and bite me.
The centre shaft (Drive ?) has about 2mm of free sideway play at the bellhousing end. I do not know if this is normal.
The circular ring just above the larger splines in the TC can be rocked sideways and results in whatever it is attached to making contact with the inner wall of the casing casing. The hollow sound it make be it low sounds very similar to the clanking noise that started this saga.
I do not know if this part of the TC is supposed to be able to move as it does.
If the TC is the faulty unit I am stumped to know what rpm stall it is as I expected this to be stamped on the unit along with the manufacturers name but it has neither.













Sorry if the photos are to big I am still getting to grips with this computer biz.
Cheers

DINGBAT wrote:The centre shaft (Drive ?) has about 2mm of free sideway play at the bellhousing end. I do not know if this is normal.

I think from memory that is normal.

The circular ring just above the larger splines in the TC can be rocked sideways and results in whatever it is attached to making contact with the inner wall of the casing casing. The hollow sound it make be it low sounds very similar to the clanking noise that started this saga.
I do not know if this part of the TC is supposed to be able to move as it does.

Not sure which bit you are talking about? You mean the input shaft seal? That should not move.

Dave the steel collar arrowed is the one it is just above the larger splines.

Oh you meant in the converter.

Can't remember if that is supposed to move or not.

Someone help!

dave-r wrote:Oh you meant in the converter.

Can't remember if that is supposed to move or not.

Someone help!

Dave that collar is part of the larger spline group which turn the strator or turbine ?.
I inserted a brush handle of the same diameter into it this morning, it and the splines revolves ok, but can be moved from side to side on its axis at any point throughout a 360 degree turn.
This results in a sound of something hitting the inner side of the casing.
If this component is supposed to be rigid and only spin this may very well be the cause of the racket.
Cheers.

No the internals should not move side to side. It is dead.

What amazes me is that the trans fluid is not full of metal.

there should be nothing moving on or inside that converter, something is wrong ,

if that collar is loose on the converter,get a new one(converter) or have that one cut open , something has come loose inside if you can turn it with a brush handle , and yes i bet that is your noise!

I've sent dingbat a private email, but for the benefit of the group, I think what he is showing just might be a torrington bearing. I don't think they should be wobbling around.
transman

Graham aka Transman thank you for your email, I emailed Paul at TCS earlier today.

With the assumption that the TC is dead the problem now arises of a replacement with so many options on the market.
Most vendors offerings appear to be without ring gears etc and I do not want to get into retro fitting one of those or dealing with external balancing etc

Coupled with this is the problem of not knowing the make or stall rpm of the present TC.
It worked well apart from the racket and I am not one given to hard driving or burnouts etc so I was hoping this unit can be overhauled and repaired.
This is not based on finances purely on the fact that it should refit exactly and operate as before.
Would there be any Trans companies in the UK who carry out these refurbishments or failing this can an 11" ten inch bolt pattern with 130 tooth ring gear 2400-2800 rpm stall unit be sourced.
Cheers

Maybe this jobby might suffice.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOPAR-To ... ccessories

All you have to do is give TCS your engine and cam spec along with rear gear ratio and they will make sure they sell you the correct converter for your application.

This is what I did (thanks to Graham) and it is perfect.

No problems either unlike the cheaper TCI converter I used before which did not launch the car as well and fell apart in short time. Which also resulted in a full rebuild of the trans and engine as it damaged the crank and bearings. Sometimes taking the cheaper route can come back and bite you on the arse big time.

Reply from Paul at TCS

Hi Pat

Thanks for the inquiry. You have an unusual problem (noise in Park or Neutral and no noise when under load) sounds like the converter has to much end clearance allowing the stator and turbine excessive float (noise). Your solution is to replace or have the converter cut open and repaired. Also please check the end thrust on the crankshaft as this may also be a problem. What you have seen in your converter (stator moving from side to side is normal, Dodges have a lot of clearance).



Paul Parkins

TCS Products

Oh dear!

Check crankshaft endplay.

I think you are allowed something like 10 thou endplay on the crank. The crank thrust surface is on the center main cap bearing.

My old converter ballooned and caused excessive wear on my (new) crank bearing. Resulting in 64 thou endplay and a ruined thrust surface on the crank because it actually wore right through the bearing. So I needed a new crank and bearings as well as a new torque converter.

I looked crank endplay up. 10 thou is the max allowed. 2-7 thou prefered.

As I am not to fond of aftermarket products I tried to source a reconded origional type T/C and flexplate for the car.
Thanks to Graham & Paul for their help.
Small block 340 units are hard to find as they are a totally different animal to the B/B type with welded ring gear etc. They also need to be externally balanced to match the cast crank with a 10" b/c.
One came up with the standard 2400rpm stall so I ordered same with flexplate. seal kit, filter, rear poly mount, 5/16 F/P mounting bolts etc.
The hold up with flights etc played havoc with delivery but it arrived today so all is good.
May get a start at refitting over the weekend.
Funny thing is the removed converter is empty of all fluid and if held and shaken the innards do move and rattle, the replacement also does this.
I had expected the replacement to be as tight as a ducks behind.
The older converter was also secured to the b&m flexplate with 7/16 bolts which is odd as I think only the Hemi and Wedge engines had these the rest being secured with 5/16ers.
I hope this has not been a fruitless task with the problem being the crankshaft thrust bearing if so I,m going on a long holiday.
Cheers.


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A lot of aftermarket high performance converters will come with the bigger bolts.

Without rebuilding the trans (cleaning all the parts of any metal and checking things like the pump that the converter pushes into) you are taking a chance with your new converter. I have my fingers crossed for you!