The Dodge Challenger Message Board

Yes, the B&M 2400 rpm holeshot converter is broken, only 900 miles on it.
THe tranny pump sucks all and it's broken too, probably the valve body too...

What can I do? A friend have a Turboaction transmission and he says that is the best option for this car, this is a 440 upgraded about 450hp.

Other way is get a new converter (no B&M), replace pump and clean all, do you think is this sure?

What brand of these trannys is good for you to use with this engine?
Is good moment to use higher converter? (238º-246º @ 0.050, roller,10,34:1 comp,1 7/8 headers,performer rpm, demon 750).

Thanks.

The 727 will take a lot more than 450hp. A great deal more.

The way I see it. The bits that have gone (the valve body should be OK after a clean) were either worn or not put together correctly.

Also the 2400 stall converter was WAY too weak and too low a stall speed for your engine. You must have been standing on the brake real hard to stop it moving off at idle? Did the idle speed drop when you put it in gear?
I would guess you would need 3000rpm stall.

I would guess the pump failed and caused the whole thing but you need to talk to a trans guy that knows these well.

There is a very good easy to read book about building these 727s by Carl H. Munroe that you should get a copy of from Amazon.com

Yes idle drop a little when I put the gear.
My provider give me a good choice with Hughes 727 tranny and hughes stall conveter (3000rpm).
I think it's a good transmission, what is your opinion?

Don't know. I have never seen one of their transmissions. I might be wrong but I think they only recently started doing 727s. I think they used to just do GM transmissions??

Yes, they're working on 727 five years ago at least. They give me full warranty if I use both components, converter and transmission.
Up to 650hp.
I must wait for two weeks for all.
I have a friend with Turoboaction full manual in his 69' 440 charger but is not possible for me to drive with this type of tranny due an accident seven years ago when I totally damaged my left arm.

I try with this and will let you know.

Sorry, what kind of converter are you using in your car?

Thanks.

A cheap TCI "street fighter" 10 inch that seems to be damaged now. I need a better one with anti-ballooning plates to make sure.

The trans is OK though. I rebuilt that myself years ago with a B&M transkit.

Check http://www.hughesperformance.com/
My problem is due to converter, transmission is strong but now is damaged for the metal parts into it.

On mine there was a some fine metal (like mercury) in the fluid in the converter but no sign of it in the trans. I will be taking it apart fully to check it over though. I will check the pump and valve body in particular.

I think the secret is to use a good (and very strong) converter from the start and not be tempted by cheaper alternatives.

I do think a B&M converter should have held up a bit better in your case though? They are not that cheap.

No, no , no.

The cause of my problem is the B&M holeshot converter, and I'm not the only one, one friend of me with upgraded 440 charger had the same problem.

The first one is from my challenger and the second one is from his charger.

We have a good friend in Summit and he asked to hughes for their 727 transmissions, they told him that this elements are good up to 650hp and total warranty if you broke it. He worked with hughes long time ago and he told me that is a good company with a very good customer care.

If you want to ask him call Summit at 001.800.230.3030 ask for John Milk (is the guy who speak spanish and english too).

He have all the fresh information about it from yesterday, you can tell him about our conversation.

Alfred.

Good to have a contact like that.

Transman who posts on this message board can supply torque converters. I was considering his OR maybe a Dynamic 10" Race converter. They put of lot of work into their converters and I have only ever heard good things about them.

The problem, here in spain is that nobody built good converters and otherwise there's no cars racing like the UK and companies do not have any interest.

You are in luck because in UK you have a lot of cars racing.

i know this is a late post, but i had the exact same converter, and the welds seperated at the converter housing and where it slides into the tranny. being in the u.s., i just called b&m, and sent them my converter w/ my receipt from summit (where i bought it). then they sent me a new one.

Ok, litemup, but who is paying cost of shipping from uk to usa?

Who is paying tranny rebuid? Did you seen my tranny pictures? B&M do not want to know about it, they says if tranny and converter failed and both are bought in B&M ok, but if you have the tranny from other brand is your problem, then I do not want to buy B&M due to the quality of material and bad customer care.

Otherwise do you think another one will be better than the first? In my pictures I show two 2400 holeshot broken, both from 440 engines (upgraded) I don't think to use it again.

First of all, for your application, (or any other performance application) a low end converter is not the way to go. A typical low end converter is just that, usually inexpensive, and for stock or very slightly modified engines.
The company I work for recommends that for any application that is over 400HP, the converter should be built to the same standards as a race converter. That is the internal componets will be furnace brazed (not hand brazed) where applicable, torrington bearings (3) will be used, anti-balloning plates used front and rear, and all mounting areas reinforced.
In other words, MAKE THE DAMN THING HEAVY DUTY. When you build lots of horsepower, the rest of the drivetrain must be built accordingly. Too many times I've seen or read were the owner has spent time and money to build a strong engine, and then cheaps out on the converter, and then will bitch when the converter fails.
From the photo, it appears that B & M used a single bearing on top of the stator of the converter (typical on a low buck unit), and the bearing came apart. If you could email me a couple of better photos, I might be able to tell you something else.
Your transmission will have to come apart and be cleaned thouroghly, as well as your valve body. You say the pump is also shot. Is it for sure?Send me photos, and let me have a look at it. Unless the pump gears inside the pump are damaged, and then did other damage to the pump body or the pump stator, I'd guess that it is just full of junk to be cleaned out.
While you've got the trans apart, it would probably be a good idea to rebuild the unit. Just remember to clean everything, as the metal from the converter will be thoughout the entire system. Clean the transmission cooler in the rad(if you've still got the system hooked up), and if you've got an auxillary transmission cooler hooked up, toss it away and replace with a new one.
Like all converter suppliers, B & M build different quality converters to meet different demands. IMHO, too often converters are purchased for $$$ reasons, and are not properly applied.

By the way Dave, the "MERCURY" you mentioned is aluminum. It may be coming from the stator in the converter or the aluminum planetaries used in the transmission.

transman

He's good isn't he?

Yeah Transman I haven't forgotten your offer on a converter. But it is way down the list of parts to aquire at the moment.

I am pretty sure the aluminum (I knew it was not mercury i was just trying to describe it) was from the inside of the converter. So far I have not found any elsewhere but the whole lot will have to come apart and flushed (again).

Thanks Transman.
I purchased B&M because they told up to 500hp to summit. Then when i had no idea about it I understood that was good unit for me, if somebody told me that not was enough for my engine I purchased another one, sure.
I do not have more pictures and mechanic does not disassembled the pump, but shaft are broken as you can see on the pictures and filter have matal particles on it.
Fiinally summit make me a good choice and I will use a hughes converter and transmission, thet give total warranty up to 650hp.
Maybe I will clean transmission and will sell it to somebody who needs a 727.

Dave, Transman. I'm not sure between 2500 and 3000 rpm converter, did you recommend 3000 for street use? I only race the car 2 or 3 times in a year, and car Is normal used a couple of times in a month.
I have 3 days to decide it, please give me your opinion about.

What kind of pros and cons have each one for "daily driver" or race?

Thanks.

The rating is only a guide. Actual stall speed depends on the amount of torque you have at lower rpms.
The longer the duration camshaft you have the higher stall speed you need just for the car to drive normally.
But the bigger the engine the lower the stall speed you need.

I am not an expert but from your engine spec I would guess you would need a 3000rpm stall just to make the car drive normally.

You only want a very very slight drop in rpm when you put it in gear. Just a few rpms.
You should not have to stand on the brake hard to stop it creeping forward.

Sorry Dave, you say "The longer the duration camshaft you have the higher stall speed you need just for the car to drive normally.
But the bigger the engine the lower the stall speed you need. "

Could you explain me it again? Sometimes is hard for me understand you.

Your confused? I am not sure I understood my own answer!

The bigger the engine the more torque you have at low rpm so the higher any converter will stall. So you don't need such a high stall rated converter.

The longer the duration of the cam the less torque you have at low rpm. So the longer the duration the lower the rpm the converter will stall at.

So for example if you have a 360-inch engine with a 240 @ 0.050 duration cam and you use a 10" converter it is going to stall around 3200rpm (just a guess off the top of my head).

The same converter in the bigger 440 is going to stall maybe 200-400 rpm higher because of the extra torque.

What stall speed you need depends on the size of your engine and the duration of your cam. There are other factors too but those are the main ones.

I am guessing with your 440 and the cam you have you are going to need something around 3000rpm stall speed.
That does not mean you have to hit 3000rpm before the car will drive away! Because of the duration of your cam it will be stalling much lower.

You do of course need to match the rear gear ratio to the rpm your engine is making power. Then the engine, converter and gears will all work together as they should and the car will drive normally.

The people who make the converter will be able to tell you which stall speed will match your cam. Rollers tend to make more torque than normal cams.

I would like to have a little more information on your vehicle.
In particular, the rear axle ratio. From your cam spec's, I would think that a 10", 2800 rpm stall converter should do you fine, but I would like the rear end ratio to be a little more helpful to you.
Be cautious on "Warranty" on performance products. Most companies will tell you (usually in small print somewhere), that there is no warranty on any "RACE" products. The Company I work for is one of the very, very few that on all 10" and smaller diameter converters there is a written 2 year warranty, and on our 12 and 11" (street converters) we have a 1 year warranty. Not that this warranty will do you any good in your location. As with all companies, it is your responsibility to get the defective product back to the company or it's agents, and you regretably are responsible for all freight charges. The freight is not a big deal if you live over here in North America, but for you fellows, my deepest sympathy. We've sent product to Europe and to the Down Under boys, and the freight costs are quite steep.
Get me a bit more information, and I'll give you what I think would best suit your application stall wise. Remember, no matter what brand of converter you chose, make sure that it is MATCHED TO THE HORSEPOWER of your car. DON'T CHEAP OUT!!!
If you check back in earlier posts I've done, I laid out some basic rules of thumb to assist in choosing the converter you need.
Any time I can be of help, let me know.

transman

Ok transman.

Engine : 440 0.030 over, 10.34 forged dome pistons, edelbrock alu heads 88cc, edelbrock performer rpm intake, speed demon 750 mechanical secondary, 1 7/8 headers, 2,5" exhaust,238-246º @0.050 cam, roller rockers 1.5 : 1 ratio, 3.23 ratio sure grip,275-60-15 wheels, milodon deep pan 7 quarts,high volume oil pump, and water pump. Mechanical carter high volume fuel pump with regulator at 7 psi.

I'm thinking to change final rear end ratio, but I have two ways, cheaper is ring and pinion 3.91 the other is gear vendors like Dave but no companies here in spain to do it.

I want a real 3000 rpm stall converter, but I know in case of 3000 stall in a small block icrease about 200-300 in a big block and is too high to drive on street.

Thanks.

Plum Crazy.
Are you sure about those cam specs? Please double check these specs for me, or if possible, send me the make of the camshaft, and the part number of it. I can do some additional work for you from this end.

From your specs, it would be a safe bet that the power band of that camshaft would be in the 1200-4600 rpm range.
With that camshaft, the maximum stall you would be comfortable with would be about about 18/2200 rpm. A 3000 stall would be too much for your camshaft. The 3.23 rear end ratio is also out for a 3000 stall converter.

Remember, for street use and the occasional trip down the drag strip, get a high stall with a stall speed of about 500/600 rpm into your powerband.

transman

You can check it on http://store.summitracing.com/default.a ... search.asp

Remember i told you @0.050.

Advertised is 300-308º

Thanks.

That is a pretty hot street cam. Peak power is going to be around 6500rpm. Maybe more.
I am telling ya. It's going to need a 3000+rpm stall speed. With 3.91:1 rear gears it will drive well on the street. You will need 4000rpm stall to run well on the track.

Ahh, that's better on the cam specs. My mistake.

Ok, from a chart we use at work this is what we would be looking at:
3500 to 6500 rpm operating range

Cruise rpm @100 KMH (depending on Rear Axle ratio) 4200 to 4600 rpm

Recommended converter 4000rpm stall !!! A lot for the street.

I like Daves recommendation, although it is a bit of a compromise.
Go with a converter that stalls between 3000 to 3500 (higher better).
While this will not be the best, it will be the best compromise. You will have to go with your 3.91 rear axle ratio for sure. Anything less, and your car will not be a pleasant street vehicle.
I personally don't really like to see much more than 2500 to 2800 rpm stall if your car is mainly street driven. However, you have built your engine to require a considerably higher stall as you want to do some racing with it.
One thing that should be mentioned to all who are reading this saga is: It is extremely difficult for ANY converter builder to build a converter that works well on the street, and will perform well at the strip too. You can have one or the other, but usually not both. A converter can be a killer at the race track, but a total dog under normal driving conditions.

I was wondering if you made any note of what rpm your engine was turning with your 3.23 rear axle ratio at 100KMh.

transman

transman wrote:I was wondering if you made any note of what rpm your engine was turning with your 3.23 rear axle ratio at 100KMh.

transman

He has 275/60/15 rear tyres so his rpm at 100km/h (62mph) is going to be about 2,520rpm with those "gay" 3.23:1 gears. (real men use a 3.55:1 or more )

With a 3.91:1 gear he should be spinnin' 3,050rpm at the same speed and will of course grow hair on his chest as a result.

Also in Europe most of our roads have a 70mph limit but the Police don't normally bother you as long as you are under 80mph. He would be pulling 4060rpm with 3.91 gears at 80mph. It should be on it's torque peak at that rpm and make good mileage.

Transman , Dave I'm in luck with both!
I know is hard to find correct solutions to combine race and normal driving but while in spain we do not have good places to race is the only choice we can do. Take the best way for each one.

I measured 3000-3050 rpm at 120 km/h.

Dave, you say " He has 275/60/15 rear tyres so his rpm at 100km/h (62mph) is going to be about 2,520rpm with those "gay" 3.23:1 gears. (real men use a 3.55:1 or more ) "
I agree with you, remember I told you I'm trying to know the best way to shorten rear end , or 3,91 or gear vendors, but I have an empty wallet at the moment, you see my car, I must finish body work and mechanical is not finished too. I will do it.

I think Pro street 30 series by hughes is the correct choice, with my torque maybe raise to 3200 and is just the right line to drive 80% and race 20%. It will be streetable and I think good result on the track.

Thanks.

Transman, you say "Ok, from a chart we use at work this is what we would be looking at:
3500 to 6500 rpm operating range "

With my crank and rods do you think is sure rise engine up to 6500 rpm or should I limit it at 6000 rpm?

And you say " A converter can be a killer at the race track, but a total dog under normal driving conditions. "

Do you want to say that on normal conditions converter slip too much?

My friend has a 3500 stall in a big torque 509 chevy engine and when he drive normally seems that power never appear, but when he drive at WOT or race, car jump at the moment and is unbeatable.

My chally before broke the converter have a lot of power at 3000 on normal driving with 2400 converter and this camshaft we are talking about.

What it means for you?