The Dodge Challenger Message Board

I just borrowed this from my nephew to read the fault codes that are plaguing my 03 Ram van 5.9 Magnum, is it worth running the power upgrade or are they a waste of time?
Reason I ask is cos I may be dropping a similar engine into the 65 Barracuda project and wanted to see if they made any worthwhile gains, won't hurt the van to have a bit more torque either

Just be aware that any changes may effect emmissions come the MOT test.

I had a full page typed up but,,,,,have you accessed any "fault codes yet? If not post em on here and we can help you diagnose the 'problem" BTW, I dont have any experience with the Hyper Tech programmer,, I DO have a bunch of exp. with OBD-II scan tools both Uni and Bi-Directional tools. I think the only thing you can change is Shift points, timing curves and cooling fan operation. Yes, I think it can be a worthy upgrade if you have the fuel octane available, and if memeory serves me right Dave told me you guys can get a higher octane than here in the states? We use the RON index and it's from 87-93 octane here in Terry Hut. With the aggressive spark curve you have to use 92-93 octane all the time, this can get costly. With a heavy vehicle like your van, detonation can be a problem,, plus you have a closed exhaust system.(stock), so be resonable with your tune.

Thanks for the links Eddie, I already got the codes from cycling the key and came up with P0132 and P0420, i looked em up in the list and they pointed to 02 sensors and catalytic converter faults.
On inspection the heat shield on the cat had come adrift and both 02 sensors were fouled, a quick scrub with a scotchbrite pad and the shield tacked back on and the motor runs sweet
The programmer turned out to be a bit of a non starter, it managed to identify and clear the codes but it couldn't read the e.c.u , although my nephews 99 Dakota R/T has the same motor it uses a slightly different system peculiar to just 99 models.
I see Daves point but I think that those programmer manufacturers are bound by federal law to keep all states legal so they have to keep within emmision guidelines and factory warranties
Either way it didn't give me any more beans but at least I fixed the problem

Glad to hear it Ade! Keep in mind however, that the plenum gasket on the Magnum engines both 5.2 & 5.9 Liter is of a marginal design, they are known for leaking oil into the combustion chambers, which quickly coats both upstream,(exhaust pipe) and downstream,(catalytic convertor), sensors and causes a slow reaction to the PCM input. It should react from about negative .45 volts to positive .45 volts,,more importantly it should do this very quickly around 30-50 times a second. A quick plug check from will confirm if oil is leaking and sometimes a vacum leak is also detected P1190

Yeah, the kegger intake is known for blowing out gaskets in the dodge truck world here in the USA. Hughes makes a nice replacement or you can make your own from aluminuim. pavementSucks.com has a bunch of info on the keg intake if you care to search. (I believe dodgeTalk.com does also).

Not quite the clever clogs I thought I was........................
I got the engine fault back, slightly less bad, but no codes come up on the digital odometer or the OBD reader, it says clear.
When the van is cold it starts very easily, drives perfectly for a couple of minutes, no more than that, then suffers a drastic loss of power, idle speed drops and is very lumpy, it pops and bangs thru the intake if you tread on the gas, stumbles along for around 10 seconds and then clears itself and runs perfectly from then on.
It only seems to affect cold starts, just amazed the fault light didnt come back on tho, any suggestios?

The main sensor at start-up the PCM 'looks' at is the ECT,(Engine Coolant Temp. ), the timing, Injector pulse width are heavily regulated at this time. I remember when you were having trouble with this sensor a while back. An easy test, IF you have a Bi-Directional scan tool is to 1st compare the ambient air temp compared to what the sensor shows. It should not vary by only a a degree or 2! If you dont have the tool, you can check the voltage at start-up,,it should be around 4.0 volts,, after the engine is warmed up the voltage should drop to around 2.0 volts. It sure helps to have access to the vehicles datastream when hooked up to a scan tool, this way you can see all the sensors reaction in real time. Also, I doubt that this the problem but it can affect timing and power at start-up is the MAP sensor, although when bad it would have those symptoms all the time, not just when cold. I would also check the engines EGR valve, these can get carboned up over time and just need to be removed to clean the carbon off the valves pintle, this can cause driveability problems if clogged. Although they do affect driveability,, some sensors wont set the fault code right away unless it causes a cylinder misfire,(Class A misfire),,Hope this helps,,

A quick check of the downstream catalytic convertor using a pyrometer,(hand held temperature reader), is the outlet will always be 10% hotter than the inlet temp. If not the the convertor is bad, plugged ectt ( On a warmed up engine).

Thanks Edd I'll try them suggestions, unfortunately I don't have a meter to test the EGT but I can measure the voltage easy enough.
On the older van, '90 318 I had a little while back it was that sensor that caused stalling and cutting out when pulling up at stops, you're right.
This current fault caused the error codes P0420 and P0132 that I diagnosed earler on this month, its still acting pretty much the same so I assume the cat or either if not both 02 sensors are at fault. Its just a little confusing that the first time the fault occured it set the error codes off and this time its not affecting it.
I got those hand held temp probes at work in stock so I'll take one home to test the temps at the cat. Am I right in thinking that the cat itself should be at 225F? One of the fault codes mentions cat temp inconsistencies due to a loose or missing insulation cover, mine was indeed flapping about and I strapped it back on with some sturdy metal banding. Is the cat temp that critical?
Thanks again for the reply mate

I should have also mentioned a very simple test,, sorry,, but tap both Cats with a plastic or rubber mallet,, if you hear ANY rattles inside the Cat it's BAD.Ok, the 1st Cat. or Pre-Cat. should be at or near 550 degrees externally(internally it's much much higher than that close to 1500 degrees), this MUST be at that temperature because the Oxygen release/storage wont take place below that temp. The 2nd Cat is just a monitoring device that checks the 1st cats efficiency, this is ALL it does. It also gets very hot in operation, almost 550 degrees externally. As I said, the 1st Cat's Oxygen sensor will show a voltage from 200 Millivolts to 850 Millivolts and switch this voltage rapidly. The 2nd Cat or Post Cat will show a steady voltage around 450 Millivolts and hold this voltage with LITTLE variation. If the Post cat varies a lot in voltage or spikes in voltage then the cat needs replaced. Cats are 'killed' by other problems, usually misfires, overly rich conditions such as burned or bad sparkplug wires, bad injectors, injector wiring, coolant in the comb. chamber due to intake gasket failure, bad sparkplug. A bad O2 sensor wont cause a backfire,, you can even run a vehicle without O2 sensors, it's fuel economy will drop about 10-15%,, many many people drive around with bad sensors and dont even know it,, especially when the vehicle is older. Post yer voltage findings and remember to use a sharp needle at the wiring harness plug near the sensor,(Back probing) ,,if you can get to it easy. If not prick the wire,, then after testing wrap the area where you poked it with electrical tape!! (Seriously)

I managed to get a temp reading off the cat after I drove home from work.
Engine temp was about 190-200 deg and the car temp had spiked a little after shutting down the motor.
I let it idle for a few minutes and took readings of 187c at the inlet and 212c at the outlet, but I can only see one cat, just to the right of the trans oil pan and about a foot down from the header pipes and just about a foot in front of a very large silencer.
When I get time this weekend I'll pull the motor cover and check the EGT with my voltmeter, the 02 sensors are easy to get to cos the van is so high
When I drove it in this morning it behaved perfectly but on the evening drive home it stumbled on Rickover for a few minutes, perfect afterward tho

Sounds like a single cat system, it also sounds like it's in good shape judging by the Temp. variation. I figured it was a dual Cat system due to the vehicles year. Is there an A.I.R. tube attached to the side of the Cat and an Air Pump below the alternator? If so, make sure it's OK with no holes in the tube or hose. It sure sounds almost like the engine is going lean for a bit then recovers. This could be a fuel delivery problem too, check the Charcoal canister near the front of the vehicle?? Make sure it's not filled with fuel,, slosh it around it should be empty. Barring all we discussed and more simple diagnostics, you may have to get someone to check the PCM with a scan tool that can access the data stream. (Bi-Directional is best) Snap-On Vantage, Solus or Ethos,, Chrysler DRB or a type of Pro-Grade tool. A vacum gauge attached to manifold vacum can also aid in diagnostics quickly. Keep us posted Ade and good luck!

Yeah you're right there is a 1/2" steel tube about 4" long poking out of the side of the cat with a cap on the end.
The emissions label under the hood says 03, the emissions diagram is clear so I'll check the components out carefully and scrutinise the vacuum hoses.
I agree with your comments about the way it feels like its drastically leaned off, like its starved of fuel, I just picked up a new fuel filter and air cleaner element to install, easy to get caught up in tech nightmares and not make sure simple stuff is ok

Removed the upstream 02 sensor on Friday evening so I could make sure the tester probes would reach into the back of the harness plug enough to get a reading.
Found one of the wires to the sensor to have some insulation missing and green with corrosion, no point testing that
Picked a new unit up from me parts monkeys today along with a fresh air cleaner element and installed em earlier this evening.
Started and ran perfect, absolutely no lumpy idle, no flat spots or stumbling during warm up, put a few miles on to get to max temp and ran flawlessly, result
............thanks for the tech tho Edd

Hey mates I still got a slight problem which resurfaced about a fortnight after I did the last repairs.
It starts lovely, drives perfect for a couple of minutes then the idle drops very low, very rough and choppy, lasts for 10-20 seconds or so and then just clears, idle rpms up to normal and no spluttering on the throttle.
If left for only half an hour and restarted it'll do it again, so I got a new ECT sensor to drop in but I can't quite see where it goes, too much stuff in the way, even when I take the motor cover off I cant see it clearly. I can see a similar sensor in the top of the intake manifold but that is a slightly bigger unit and looks to be in the air stream not the coolant stream.
Any of you got a 360 around '03 you can look at for me and tell me where it is? Ta

I think Ive got it sussed out now, that sensor i can see at the top left side of the manifold is the Intake Air Temp, the Engine Coolant Sensor is behind the alternator next to the stat housing, please correct me if I'm wrong
I can't see the bloody thing cos its a van and I can't get my fat head across the top of the motor

Adrian Worman wrote:I think Ive got it sussed out now, that sensor i can see at the top left side of the manifold is the Intake Air Temp, the Engine Coolant Sensor is behind the alternator next to the stat housing, please correct me if I'm wrong
I can't see the bloody thing cos its a van and I can't get my fat head across the top of the motor

Yes, you are correct! They are both 2 wire sensors. The IAT,(Intake air temp. sensor is usually larger in size but not always, sometimes they even look identical) You will probably have to loosen the Alternator, then move it so you can access the ECT. Ade, once you have the sensor in hand, and want to test it, place a DVOM on it and tell me what the resistance shows and at what temp. it was,(ambient temp) when you test it. I can compare it. Or you can heat a pan of water to boil and drop the sensor in the water, wait for at least 3 min.then with gloves on check the resistance across the terminals again,(The resistance should have a significant change, should be much lower,,at 195 degrees it should read around 800 Ohms) at freezing temps it should read around 11,000 Ohms. My lower head is pretty fat too, like a can of tuna!