[Pat]

I agree with everything Pat says.

This would be my cam of choice for a 500 incher.

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/prod ... rtid=21815

This is the slightly "bigger" version of the cam I had in my 440 Challenger. I wouldn't have wanted more cam in a 440 street car than that. The extra inches will allow a bit more cam though.

Thanks for the suport Dave =) Theres not gona come any good out a cam that needs a 4000rpm stall and the plugs will drop out one by one crusing down the street soakt whit fuel ! If it were a clean strip engine in a chassie that could handel it i would mabe try it out.

[dave-r]

With the cam I had, my Challenger sounded more mean on open pipes than some of the race cars in the fire up road alongside me.

A mate of mine has a 528 inch B1 motor in his Coronet and he can hardly drive that anywhere. OK it runs 10 seconds flat with his heavy arse in it but on the street it is a bastard to keep idling as it fouls up damn quick.

The massive heads are mainly to blame there though. You can just about get your fist in the intake runners. The intake velocity and vacuum signal at idle must be close to nothing.

[Adrian Worman]

I got a set of Cometic gaskets, I planned to use them as long as they don't mark the face of the Edelbrock heads.
I don't think the pistons will give 11:1 even with head milling but I got the piston specs,I suppose we can work it out.
Bore 4.360"
Comp height 1.855
Eff volume 32cc

I need to get the crank and rods measured when I drop off the block and pistons for final finishing.
Tryin to get em in this week

Thanks for your efforts in talking to RB Ed!
I understand Pats concerns on that profile, I've heard a lot of opinions on that one, but its there and somebody put a lot of thought into designing it so I am gonna give it a whirl

Regarding oil pump, do you think the billet Miloden set up is too much? I got the heavy bronze drive gear.
Maybe I should just go with a stock pattern high volume Melling pump?

[Pat]

Adrian,
Im just trying to convinse you to not do a big mistake and im sorry if i offended you in any way ! The thin is i dont doubt that some one put alot of efford in planing this engine but for what use !? The answer to that qestion is without a doubt THE TRACK only ! This engine is gona bleed bad on you burning fuel in your headers when you are cruise down the steet washing of your top piston ring bad and case an unessesery wear and put you plugs out one by one and the engine response will be close to nothing until you reatch 3000rpm and then al hell is gona break lose and you will ofcores burn tires but you whant tires to have tracktion !?

Regarding the oilpump i whas pointing at a stock std oil pump none high volume ! If you did your homework corekt on your engine build that would be al you need ! Im useing one on mine and i have 40psi on idel and about 50-55psi when it regulates on a 170-180F hot engine water and that is on a 10w40 mineral oil ! Shore you can use a high volume oil pump but even if you adress the high oil preciure you gona get whit that pump the only thing its gona cause you is that its gona compansate longer before you are gona understand that some bearing gone bad and that would meen more damedg. The Mellings std oilpumps are set for 55-60psi oil presiure !

[Adrian Worman]

You can't offend me Pat, you're just doing your best to give me advice the best you know how and I thank you for it

[dave-r]

What worries me about Mopar big block oil pumps is how they are driven. Bit of a weak spot.

The harder it is to spin that pump the more likely it is to fail.

We all get suckered into fitting the 1/2" pick-up and a high volume pump. Done it myself. But I do wonder if it is really needed.

My gut feeling is that if the engine is going to run at very high rpm it is needed. Normal street rpms not needed. Somewhere in between....well I don't know.

I used to run to 6500rpm on the strip for my cam. So swung for the big pick-up and pump. But if I was using a stroker motor that was all done by 6000rpm I might not have bothered with the pump.

But I would still use the bigger pick-up.

On mine I not only curved the 90 degree bend in the block passage, I also matched the hole in the pump to it.

[Pat]

What worries me about Mopar big block oil pumps is how they are driven. Bit of a weak spot.

The harder it is to spin that pump the more likely it is to fail.

We all get suckered into fitting the 1/2" pick-up and a high volume pump. Done it myself. But I do wonder if it is really needed.

My gut feeling is that if the engine is going to run at very high rpm it is needed. Normal street rpms not needed. Somewhere in between....well I don't know.

I used to run to 6500rpm on the strip for my cam. So swung for the big pick-up and pump. But if I was using a stroker motor that was all done by 6000rpm I might not have bothered with the pump.

But I would still use the bigger pick-up.

On mine I not only curved the 90 degree bend in the block passage, I also matched the hole in the pump to it.

I agree Dave ! For street/strip engine up to around 6000-6500rpm is no trubbel with stock oil pump and i use the std zice pickup not the 1/2" and it works great and no mods to the oil channels but ofcorse curved the 90 degree bend. I know that Dave Hughes always do those mods on his engines for custermers but i dont beleve it´s nessecery but for high reving engines YES ! There are a lot of old dragracing foxes out there that would recomend high volume oilpumps but that is by my book no good deal and most of those guys also recomend running engine on glue (20w50 oil) and i dont blame them becas thats what they were use to for decades .

[Adrian Worman]

Blocks at the machine shop now gettin checked over thoroughly and having the bores actually match the piston
While its there I thought I may as well trial fit the top end components, here's the very nice Racer Brown valvetrain.......

[Eddie]

Looks very nice Ade! Why are you using a bronze geared intermediate shaft with a flat tappet cam? Those bronze gears are for use with a Billet steel cam core. Usually they are roller cams. The bronze is used due to the hardness of the billet cam. It needs a softer material to survive against the billet cam gear. With a flat tappet cam I would use a Iron gear with a hardened hex tip and pinned gear,,it will last much much longer than the bronze gear. The High-Volume oil pump is what you want to use Ade,,especially with your valvetrain choice. This will provide extra cooling of those components especially at idle. You don't need the Billet oil pump covers unless you want an external oil port to tap into on the cover. They are also VERY expensive! Take the cover off the stock style oil pump, place the pump body against the block and make sure the inlet port lines up to the port in the block,,you can even scribe it out on Machinist dye,,then remove any material blocking the port, radius it out and that's all you need!

[Eddie]

I'm not a fan of aluminum rockers, street engines need steel arms! Just make sure to check on them from time to time. Eventually they WILL fail. I like either Bushed Comp Cams steel bodied rockers or the best rockers made in my opinion,,,RAS Stainless, bronze bushed rockers, thick walled chrome shafts, ARP stud kit, billet hold downs. Unfortunately, RAS doesn't show their 440MAX Chrysler rockers listed anymore,,don't know if they ceased production. I e-mailed Gary at RAS but received no response. I'll try and call them. Sell the alloy arms to a drag racer! True street engines need steel arms! JMHO

[Adrian Worman]

I have an MP bronze geared intermediate shaft still in its box which I had intended to go into this build. I thought the MP unit would be stronger overall and since the oil pump drag is likely to be higher I assumed stronger was better. I also assumed that the bronze gear was less prone to fracturing than ductile iron cos it was softer
I checked the cost of all that rocker gear on FBO's site and it would be around a thousand bucks for everything shipped to the UK!!! Staggered
Been using Crane Gold rockers in me Chally for 3years now, plenty of sustained high rpm road use and a few trips up the strip and not a hint of a loose adjuster, roller or tip failure, but then they are hydraulic lifters so that's a little easier on the valvetrain

[Eddie]

Sounds good Ade,, I just mentioned my pers. preference towards aluminum rockers but that's just me. Anyways, the bronze gear is specifically engineered to be a "Sacrificial Part" when used with a Steel Billet Cam core. It will wear more rapidly than a cast iron intermediate shaft. They also cost more than 100 bucks. The MoPar Perf. Inter. Shaft is around 60 bucks and will last like an OEM shaft. Sure you could use the bronze part,, but check the timing from time to time. With a High-Volume pump and no thicker than 10W-40 oil it should last at least 5K miles. Once I get mine up and running, I'll probably replace mine yearly. I will also use a shaft collar to make timing diagnosis a snap! The chain will be easy to check with the cap off, a wrench on the damper, check chain slack with timing marks on damper. If the timing is still off it's gotta be the shaft gear/cam gear relationship.

[Adrian Worman]

Result!!! Found a box that sez pt.no3571071......... Mopar RB std perf int shaft, and the shaft inside it is brand new and pinned
Thanks for the guidance Ed

[Adrian Worman]

Just had a call back from the machinist, he says the block needs 0.009" taking out of it to give me 0.006" skirt clearance, he's very happy with the deck heights and the alignment of the main cap/bore............ just wanna grab it now and start grinding the rings and gettin the short block assembled nice

[dave-r]

Good news. I love putting engines together. It is one of those jobs you really don't mind taking ages. The joy is in taking your time.

[Adrian Worman]

Woooooooooohoooooooooo!!!!! It fits and so does its 7 mates, now I can really enjoy assembling this lil monster

[dave-r]

Lovely Jublee mate.

[Eddie]

Great news Ade!

[Adrian Worman]

Got Saturday afternoon clear to wash the block and clean out all the threads again.
Machinist said that he was very happy with the deck heights, finish and had measured the main cap bores and said as far as he was concerned the block had been very well prepped , albeit to the wrong size
Can't wait to get stuck into a few long evenings in the garage assembly the short block now, I'm gonna make it last as long as I can

[Adrian Worman]

Well nearly........ I do have to obtain another set of rings now cos I filed one piston set before I realised my bore dia problem....... and I just discovered first hand how a 0.001" increase in bore dia means a 0.0035" increase in ring gap
Never mind eh

[dave-r]

Well nearly........ I do have to obtain another set of rings now cos I filed one piston set before I realised my bore dia problem....... and I just discovered first hand how a 0.001" increase in bore dia means a 0.0035" increase in ring gap
Never mind eh

All because of that bastard Pi and his 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253
421170679821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081284811174502841027019385211055596446
229489549303819644288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091456485669234603486104543266
482133936072602491412737245870066063155881748815209209628292540917153643678925903600113305305
48820466521384146951941511609...etc

[Adrian Worman]

HA!! Exactly Dave it was all down to him ............ nothin to do with my impatience at all

Emailed Total Seal last night and they forwarded my enquiry to Performance Unlimited in Donongton and one of each rings will be here Monday! Sweet

[Eddie]

Here is a neat tool that follows the camshaft lobe exactly and very accurately. It makes degreeing the cam a snap! Insert into the 2nd lifter hole,(Intake), from the front of the drivers side engine block. I use a Moroso Pro- Degree wheel,(large sized), this tool and a piston stop,,easily fabbed with a simple steel strap,,hole in the middle for a bolt, attached with 2 head bolt fasteners. I don't like the pushrod method, flimsy,,not accurate, hard to work with. I can degree a Cam in 10 minutes. Checks True dead center, .050 before intake cam lobe peak, .050 after intake cam lobe peak,(#1 cylinder). This gives you the installed centerline in degrees, lift at .200 ect

[Eddie]

Another neat tool,, piston ring installer. Cheap,, about 3-5 bucks, I don't like winding the rings on the piston by hand. The ring edges are VERY sharp as they should be,, but it removes soft aluminum easily and damages the ring lands and accumulator groove,(if applicable), and cuts your hands.

[Eddie]

Last but not least,,my ring grinder. I do one thing that's kinda neat. I only remove one side,,leaving the other side perfect and it will show if you cut the one side crooked. This is very bad! You want to cut the ring towards the center of the piston. Then gently remove the jagged edge with a small nail file and emery board. Get a womans cheap nail care kit at a five and dime store. Works fabulous! Cost about 2-4 bucks. DONT CHAMFER the edge,,just remove the jagged edge and make it square to the untouched ring gap, shine a light under the gaps,,you should not see any light between the gaps. Check with a feeler gauge often until you hit the target Gap. I also taped my fingers up because you still have to squeeze the rings into the bore,,my fingers got cut often on the sharp ring edges. Use an inverted piston to square the ring in the bore before gapping it . You can check your work by rotating the ring in it's groove,,it should rotate around the piston easily,,if not a burr is hanging the ring up. This MUST be corrected or the engine will burn oil and eventually burn that cylinder up. Cheers and good luck Ade,,let me know if you need any help,,my pleasure!

[Adrian Worman]

I like that cam follower degreeing tool

I'm really looking forward to doing the rings, its very satisfying work and gives me the feeling of actually engineering a component for the right effect
I must admit I don't use a ring expander or install tool, I much prefer to do it by hand so I can feel the amount of tension I'm placing on the ring itself. I've sort of got into a good groove of hooking one end in and in one swift movement placing the ring straight in.
I totally agree and am a big fan of the grind one side only tip for the ring gap and I got that tip from a Chuck Senatore book years ago. I too stick an led light under the ring in the cylinder to check for any inconsistencies in the end I've filed against the factory finished end. I start with a too small a gap on purpose and often by the time I've squared the end up I've got the actual desired gap.
Talking of gaps I have these settings in mind for the comp and second rings;
Comp ring gap set at 0.020" and second ring gap set at 0.016", this assumes Total Seals guidelines of 0.0045" times bore dua for top and 0.0035" times bore dia for 2nd, finally oil stack set at 0.015" which was manufacturers recommendation.
I must admit that the second ring gap seems a little tight to my mind......... what do you reckon?

[Eddie]

Sounds like you have a handle on the situation just fine Ade! On the Ring Gaps, this is for high RPM's and race conditions. The current trend is to increase the 2nd ring gap slightly, this results in allowing any accumulated gasses from upseating the top ring and losing power. However, I think this is for above 6,500 RPM's probably higher that that! On your rings,,I would follow the manufacturers instructions to the letter. The gaps you selected are almost identical to mine. .020 and .016 I also had to use a wrist pin support,,my Pistons are very short and very light. It loves to rev!

[Adrian Worman]

Picked up me pistons, crank and block from the machine shop this afternoon, well pleased with the result.
Can't wait to start assembling the dhort block this weekend

Thanks to Ed for speaking to Diamonds tech team, they didn't have time for me

[Eddie]

Well done Ade! They look to pretty to use! Like the forced pin oilers for yer floaters and the accumulator groove between the 1st and 2nd rings this helps with high RPM gasses that get trapped and unseat the top ring! Keep us informed on this exciting time!

[Adrian Worman]

On that subject of trapped gasses I assume that was the reason for the trend of setting the 2nd ring gap slightly loose so as to get the gasses between the two top rings to escape