The Dodge Challenger Message Board

Yeah you're right .0015", hard to spot my mistakes on my iPhone
I measured at 90 deg, my plastigauge was old and dry, I'll get some fresh and redo it.
It was half way between .0015 and.002 on the steps on the card. I'll redo it.
If I have to take some material off can I do it with krokus cloth or would I be better off having it machined?
I didn't do any of the work on this motor, Don Gould specced the whole assy and shipped it to my mate a few years back.

Re-Measure it Ade. If it's at .002 it will be fine. Just don't use any thicker oil than 10-40W weight. If you want to be absolutely precise you can measure it with a dial bore gauge with main caps attached with bearings in place, as well as the rods/caps/bearings. However, to do this accurately you need a precision Bore gauge and they are very expensive as well as difficult to use until you get a feel for the tool. Plasti-Gauge is actually very accurate. Make sure you are using the right colour. Here is a strip of .002-.006 RED I think you need the GREEN which is .001-.003 as far as removing .0005 of material there is only 1 way. Abrasives,,either a crank polisher or belt fixture using abrasives. This will remove very thin amounts of material and polish the journals at the same time. Machining with tooling cutters leaves micro grooves from the tooling that must be polished out. This removes too much material. 4340 Heat Treated steel is very hard. It must be accomplished with a machine. This way (T.I.R.),runout and concentricity is maintained.

After determining your clearances on all mains and you are satisfied with it. Take a dial indicator with mag base,,attach it with OILED or ASSEMBLY LUBE on lower bearing shells in the saddles. keeping the probe away from the centerline/oiling holes,,, ZERO the dial indicator,,rotate the crank,,observe any reading from ZERO,, if it's to the right of Zero it indicates a HIGH SPOT,, to the left of ZERO,,indicates a low spot. Then you can make up your mind on what to do. If there is any runout or lack of concentricity now would be the time to both set oiling clearances and make the journals perfectly round and Mico-polished. Any Auto machine shop can do this for you. You will also need to take a rod with cap attached and bearing shell in place so they can measure it. But I think you will be fine. This is for a worst case scenario.

Yeah make sure that the two halves of the thrust bearing are completely flush with the crank thrust face. Very important.

I used green gauge Ed, but the stuff seemed very dry and a little brittle so I'll pick up some fresh and remeasure.
I used a basic SnapOn dial gauge to check run out on the crank mains when I first laid it on the block bearing halves. I could see no needle fluctuation and I put a large wrench on the crank nose bolt so I could get a smooth consistent rotation.
Except for the plastigauge test I always squirt fresh 10-40 over the bearing surfaces before I turn anything.
Oh and the thrust bearing clearance was spot on, .005" blade was an easy fit and .006"was just a little tight, so I'm happy with that.
And yes Daveman the number 3 shells sit perfect against the crank thrust face

Adrian,
Many engine builders prefere to line hone the main bearing jornals and especiely when ARP studs are used ! Regarding oilpans i whent a different way and im relay happy i did whit a Milodon 31580 Road Race Pro Touring that wount hit any bumps but yours will work great and give you mutch oil =) Hope your ready soone so you can enjoy it !!!!!

Pat wrote:Adrian,
Many engine builders prefere to line hone the main bearing jornals and especiely when ARP studs are used !

I would even say this is mandatory. A friend of mine tried switching to studs on a small block last year, and the crank would not turn once everything was torqued. He had to go back to bolts. The block was just fresh from decking/boring/line honing.

fbernard wrote:

Pat wrote:Adrian,
Many engine builders prefere to line hone the main bearing jornals and especiely when ARP studs are used !

I would even say this is mandatory. A friend of mine tried switching to studs on a small block last year, and the crank would not turn once everything was torqued. He had to go back to bolts. The block was just fresh from decking/boring/line honing.

Good advice Fabien and Pat,the block was align bored with studs
I had a chance to recheck the clearances this morning and I used some new green plastigauge, torqued all caps down and then measured the clay line, result ..................halfway between the .002" and .003" lines.
More importantly I know how I got the first reading, I had laid the crank on the block and dropped the caps in place and then torqued all the caps down for the first time with the plastigauge in place..............so I compressed the bearing halves into the block and cap with the plastigauge in em, no wonder it made the clay wide!

I figured it was line honed/bored. Nice Clearance Ade, you are set!

Great Adrian then you are safe

Oh, forgot to mention Ade,,do you already have timing set? If not, and the block was align bored as you say,, then the standard size timing set will be too loose. You will need a -.010 timing set.( 10 thousandths undersized) I like RollMaster Billet Steel with oversized true roller chain,,with a block Torrington bearing and lower crank sprocket cut ,(Vernier), so advance/retard is easy to set without pesky bushings. My block was also line bored then honed,,and this is what I needed. The timing set should be as tight as possible. Any slop will retard the camshaft and wear the timing set out quickly.

The real roller from Cloyes works great and they have what you need to ! Im more intrested in what cam you are gona use and heads ? If you still whant to use the Race Brown cam im thinking you are gona make a mistake becas the duration seams to be a hole lot more than you need on the street !? i wouldent prefere more than 246-248 at 050 on intake. Hope you got some good cam bearings !? Durabond multi layer is outstanding but how ever stay away from solid aloy or your gona be sorry there to ! You might need to adjust your cam to get corekt clearance to and i ALWAYS use 3 point micrometer to mesiure clearance becas plastic gauge isent that relyabel and that will not show you if the bearings are compleatly round ! Oh one more qestion what oil pump are you gona use ?

You could get so many advice that you acualy do more harm than good to your engine

A good friend of mine once said when the wise man points out the moone the fool looks at the finger and
that can be so thru some times.

I agree with everything Pat says.

This would be my cam of choice for a 500 incher.

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/prod ... rtid=21815

This is the slightly "bigger" version of the cam I had in my 440 Challenger. I wouldn't have wanted more cam in a 440 street car than that. The extra inches will allow a bit more cam though.

Hey good questions over breakfast (espresso and pop tarts,thanks)
Ed......... Yes mate I got a Rollmaster billet timing set coming from a mate of mine in the MMA, and its supposed to be .0010" shorter than stock RB, not collecting it until the Nats at the end of the month so I'll have to wait till then to be sure.
Pat.......... Cam bearings are some Clevite I fitted a short while back, I can't remember the exact spec and I've tossed the box since then
As for the cam and heads, I'm gonna use that RacerBrown custom grind cam first just cos its there and I'd like to see how it works, but I would like to use a modern roller cam as an alternative. Never ran a roller cam before and I'd like to gain some experience in installing and using one.
The heads? Iron early castings, I think maybe '67, closed chamber with one piece s/s valves, beautiful bowl and runner porting work apparently done by Mondello in the States.
I cc'd them and CR will be just about 10:1.
An alternative i have laying about is a pair of stock Edelbrock RPM heads, closed chamber again , I would like to use them for a couple of reasons, heat and weight
The CR is pretty much the same but I may skim them a little but I don't think it'll raise CR much.
I think when I last researched it I found I could yield a CR of 10.25:1.
Journal run out I checked with a dial gauge and I checked the plastigauge at two points,90deg from each other.
Oil pump will be a Miloden billet high volume unless you can recommend any alternative?
Daveman......... I think if I do change the cam it'll be a Hughes roller, I've heard nothing but good things about them

Was fully expecting to take a box of slugs and rods to my mates machine shop today when I had a pleasant surprise.......... floating wrist pins
Here's Lily doing an inspection.......

Looks sweet Ade! Yeah, most forged pistons have full floaters in them. I don't like pressed pins anyways, forged pistons run much hotter then cast cheapo slugs so you gotta allow for expansion and floaters are better because they are forced oiling thru the oil ring land. If I were you and you are going to use a stretch gauge to install the rods bolts,,now would be the time to measure the rod bolts length, write the number down in your build plan. Then when you tighten the bolts to length,,you can compare the overall length to what it was before you torqued them. This will show if the bolts have exceeded their installed length. They will stretch approx. .006 at 65 Lbs torque with ARP lube on the threads and especially under the bolt head. What kind of rings you got? Usually ductile iron plasma moly top ring, plain cast 2nd and stainless oil expander. 1/16th, 1/16th. 3/16th is what their cut for. Nice race balance job too! TIP,, to find the cam/crank timing,,it's MUCH easier to hang the #1 piston and degree the cam that way instead of installing all 8,,much much easier to turn the engine over. You can easily turn the degree wheel by hand,,,, with all 8 installed there is a lot of drag. Hope this helps

Lily liked them pistons a lot, had to clean the spit off of them after
The rod bolts from K1 come with a very good guide to bolt stretch practice and application, I emailed em for advice and they recommended the torque and angle method, got it sorted.
Rings are SealedPower exactly as you described, gonna get the ring grinder up and at it tomorrow afternoon.
Aiming for a top gap of .019", 2nd ring at .015" and oil control stack at same.
I love this stuff

Adrian Worman wrote:Lily liked them pistons a lot, had to clean the spit off of them after
The rod bolts from K1 come with a very good guide to bolt stretch practice and application, I emailed em for advice and they recommended the torque and angle method, got it sorted.
Rings are SealedPower exactly as you described, gonna get the ring grinder up and at it tomorrow afternoon.
Aiming for a top gap of .019", 2nd ring at .015" and oil control stack at same.
I love this stuff

Lily , yeah,,all great quality stuff! Those rod bolts are ARP 2000 series,,very tough! Sounds like you have great handle on it all Ade!

I have one small concern, the oiling holes on no4 cam bearing are not lined up properly with both block holes, one is fine but the other is covering the block passage by a third. I know the cam bearings are easy to clearance with a bearing knife, but could I just use a small round file to open up the aperture a little?
If I remove and reinstall the bearing I can balance the two passages but they will still both be slightly restricted

One of my cam bearings was exactly the same. I hummed and harred about it for days and then decided just to leave it alone.

My final reasoning was that the hole is probably bigger than you really need for sufficient oiling given the cam bearing clearance.

Plus if I tried to fix it I was probably in danger of making an arse of it in some way.

I wouldn't re-install a camshaft bearing, once removed, the "crush" is sometimes removed. I would leave it alone Ade. Mine was the same way. No problems. If it's just a partial obstruction it wont matter. If it's more then 1/2 obstructed then you can remove a small bit of material.

Well, things have ground to a stop
Took a piston yesterday, took a stack of rings, filed the top and second rings, oil control stack ok as is, used the piston to centre the rings an inch or so down the bore like I usually do, didn't notice anything wrong.
Once I'd done the first piston I thought I may as well drop it into the bore and get a marker to write on it ................ the piston skirt wouldn't fit into the bore!
I grabbed a set of vernier s and checked piston skirt, i read off 4.355", says for a 4.360" bore on the box for the rings and pistons. I don't have a decent bore dial gauge so I had to use the 1 inch internal part of my vernier s, went round the bore taking measurements.......... just a whisker over 4.350"
I'll have to take a piston and the block to a machine shop and see what the exact sizes come out at but I can see I've got a problem.
The skirt will push into the top of the bore and down to the ring lands but its stuck there, I had to push it up from the underside with my hand and it was tight. The pistons are Diamond forged custom and I expected a clearance of somewhere around .006", I know the modern forgings can run a much tighter clearance than they used to.
I did have a thought and considered if the bore had been left for final honing to match the piston but the bore is nicely finished so it appears not, just me clutching at straws in desperation!
Know what bugs me the most? I feel so fucking stupid for not measuring everything before I started

It's no big deal. Just a pain in the arse and extra expence you were not expecting.

I am guessing the block was done before piston choice was made. Or piston choice changed after machining.

I would get the deck height checked with the pistons at the same time. Make sure the deck is level to all 4 corners. May as well while it is there getting machined otherwise you could be back again after trying the pistons at home.

Yeah I know its not the end of the world Daveman, just bloody annoying and frustrating!
Blocks been decked at 10.700" and line bored, it just appears that the block was thought to have been ready for these pistons, who knows!
I need to email the piston manufacturer, Diamond, and give them the pt no and application and get then to recommend what clearances to aim for and then get it to the grindhouse

I would still get piston height checked though mate. At least in all 4 corners. Cock-ups can and do happen a lot in engineering shops no matter how good.

Yeah Daveman I've spoke to me mates and he's gonna check it all over again for me.

Adrian,
Sorry for the delay on my reply but i have been to Power Big Meet in Vasteras ! Regarding your cam choise you gona be sadly dissepointed when you start your engine but thats up to you. I would defenetly not use more that a stock oil pump if it were up to me but if you whant to lose hp and let the drive shaft take the extra load is also up to you but you will have to mutch oil presiure whit your choise that needs attension.

Ade, sorry to hear about the piston/bore sizing. Yes, enlist the aid of a performance machine shop. They will know how much clearance you will need with those forged pistons. 2618 alloy requires the most clearance. 4032 requires a bit less. They will hone the cylinder to each respective piston and that will be a matched set. They do it this way to minimize ring wear. Too much clearance is fine for a race only powerplant, but for street/strip you should only use as much as needed. This also keeps oil contamination at a minimum. As Dave stated I would have them check the deck surface and if you are going to use MLS head gaskets and alloy heads,, you will want them to finish the deck surface with a minimum R/a finish of 45-50. MLS gaskets need a very fine finish to be able to scrub the surface,(move around a bit during heat/cold cycles.) You might also take your heads in to them to check the deck surface of the heads, now would be the time to do this. Have them check valve guide clearance with the valves you plan on using while there. Seats can be checked for runout and concentricity. Let us know what the shop says. The cam you are using was ground by Racer Brown. I called them personally and spoke to the bloke that ground that cam. Yes, it is a bit large but will have a great powerband from 2500-6000 RPM.s compression is your friend here, try for a minimum of 10.5 to 1 11 to 1 prefrerred, I don't remember your RON Octane over there but if it supports a higher ratio go for it. It will have a sexy lope, and pull like a freight train from 2,500 on up and make massive torque!

Our 97 to 99 octane is like your 93-94. Not great but good enough for 10:5 with iron heads and 11.5:1 with alloy heads as long as you also use a bigger camshaft so some of the cylinder pressure is bleeding off.

Then I would go with at least 11 to 1 if he can get the piston deck height at .000 or close to it with closed chambered heads, this way he can use Squish as an advantage and set his piston to head clearance with the gasket. This is what I did on my block. I have the piston at exactly the top of the block, Fel-Pro Race 1009 .040 compressed thickness 4.441 bore size gasket with an actual cylinder size of 4.375,,works very well. If I had to do it over I would have specified an R/a finish conducive to MLS gaskets on the deck/head and a compressed thickness of .040 for the gasket. Perfect street/race clearance with steel rods. The duration of the cam he is using will bleed off some static compression so I think he will be golden once the machine shop gets it sorted. Ade, if the shop has a Rottler or Sunnen block machining center they can also check line bore accuracy, bellhousing 'squareness, deck height, do the honing with a load sensing fixture specified by whatever rings you use. I would not use low tension rings for anything other than all out race duty. They migrate too much oil into the chamber on the street,,especially without a source of vacuum. Good Luck, Ade!