The Dodge Challenger Message Board

Today I pulled apart the front of my engine to replace my timing chain and gears because it had the original one with the nylon camshaft gear, to my surprise the gear was in great shape with no cracks, chips, broken teeth, etc... and should probably be framed and sent off to the Smithsonian Institute. lol. What caught my eye was that the chain was so stretched I can almost take it off over the gears without removing them, is this normal for a 440 4 Speed 4.10 gears with only 52k miles? I am also curious if this is the reason for surging at cruising speed. Another thing, whenever I would try to set the timing the mark would bounce all over the place. Will the car run better with a new chain and gears or am I just dreaming? What do you guys recommend for a decent double roller? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks Rick

The valve and ignition timing will be all over the place with a stretched chain. If you had high compression and a big camshaft you would probably have damaged the pistons and valves by now.

Get a good quality chain and gear set and dial the cam in rather than just lining the dots up.

Stock camshaft and compression. Should I just get a set that has the 3 different slots on the crank gear and set it at 3 or 4 degrees retarded? I heard that people have done that with good results. Thanks

I retarding the timing slightly will increase low rpm torque but drop the peak HP level.

Advancing the cam slightly will increase peak HP but drop low rpm torque.

Most good timing sets have different keyways built in like my JP Performance set.

Don't buy a Cloyes set. There are notorious for being way off on their timing marks.

I think you have it all backwards Dave. Retarded timing aids Top end Power. Advancing the timing aids low speed power. The biggest complaint with a stretched timing chain is the car accelerates ok after it gets up to speed. I would NOT retard the cam for a street car unless the cam manufacturer suggests you do this.. Low end torque is whats needed not a slight increase in top end power and it will be very slight as most street/ hi-perf. cams are ground with a little bit of advance into it. Lining up the dots is fine IF you have a new timing chain, intermediate shaft and cam gear, but it only takes afew minutes to find the installed Centerline of the Intake valve inregards to the crankshaft position. Lining up the dots and using that at face value is risky and you place the trust in the manufacturer, which can make a mistake. One tooth 'off' is worth 12 degrees + or - this CAN affect drivability. www.webcamshafts.com for more info click glossary. Hope this helps,,I like RollMaster they are all Billet steel, heatreated, German Iwis chain,,Torrington bearing for friction reduction and save the block from increased wear at the interface the worlds finest MoPar timing sets! Also make sure the timing set isnt too loose if it is a smaller set can be ordered, .005 to .010 if it's too loose it will permaturely stretch quickly and retard the timing agin in short order due to chain whip and this causes the chain to stretch. It should fit tightly with no more than .100 play approx.

airfuelEddie wrote:I think you have it all backwards Dave. Retarded timing aids Top end Power. Advancing the timing aids low speed power.

You are right!

I get muddled at my age you know.

Also worth bearing in mind that many performance cams come with +3 degrees built into the grind. Using a degree wheel to verify where you are is essential.

Yeah, they can be had cheaply, a TDC tool can also be made with an old sparkplug body, or sheet steel if the heads are off.

Thanks guys, How do I degree in my stock cam? I was busy today and hope to get out tomorrow and pick up the parts I need. I figure I will replace the water pump, front crank seal, radiator hoses and belts while I'm in there. I also painstakingly cleaned everything and painted all parts factory colors (hemi orange and gloss black) should look real nice all back together.

You have to use a degree wheel on the front of the engine after lining up the dots.

The piston stop is to determine true TDC on #1 cylinder so you can line up the degree wheel accuratly.

Then with a dial gauge on #1 cam lobes you turn the engine by hand and check against this cam data below. You can then see if the dots were in the right place or if the timing needs advancing or retarding from its current position.

There are more detailed instructions on the internet and in books/magazines etc.

Or you could just line up the dots and hope for the best?

There is another way to do this without 'tools' a small machinists straight edge is the key here,(The kind they stick in their shirt pockets), with the number one cylinder at TDC or near it, true TDC on the (INTAKE stroke only) will have both lifters up in their bores by the same amount, you can remove a valve cover and observe both valvespring retainers. They should be even in height and then check the dots on the gear, they should be lined up near perfectly. A small straight edge helps here. Intake, Compression, Power, Exhaust--. The cycle starts on the Intake. The intake on#1 cylinder is the 2nd lifter bore on the drivers side of the block at the front.

Yep. And TDC on the exhaust stroke both lifters should be up very slightly by the same amount as the exhaust is just closing and the intake just opening.

What timing sets are you guys running? I was looking at Edelbrocks 7804 double roller, anyone hear anything about it? Again , my engine is stock 440 6 Pack 4 speed 4.10 dana so I don't need anything crazy, just want something strong and not going to stretch. Thanks Rick

I use a JP Performance set. Excellent quality for the price.