1 step forward, 2 steps back Header Question

by **The Toy Peddler** » 10 Jan 2010 15:19

I've already got the engine and tranny in (440). I backed out the steering column thinking I could get the headers in from the top, but it looks like a no-go there. No way on the passengers side, and I would have to remove the steering box from the drivers in order to do that. My question is:
Would it be easier for me to remove the torsion bars and go in from underneath, which looks like it would work, or do I disconnect the engine and tranny and pull the engine part way out and slip the headers in. (no other connections, linkage, lines have been put in place on the engine yet)
Paul

by **Jon** » 10 Jan 2010 15:30

Not sure about a 440 but on my small block I would lift the engine up to fit headers. Probably just a matter of raising it higher up with the bigger motor. Maybe install the starter so you know it fits with them on.

by **dave-r** » 10 Jan 2010 15:32

The way to do it is this;

Unbolt the engine mounts. Remove the spark plugs.

(assuming you don't have a 2 or 4 post lift) Get the front of the car as high as possible on ramps and blocks of wood. The higher it is the easier it is.

Now jack up the DRIVERS side of the engine using a large block of wood under the sump. Jack the engine up and over to the passenger side as far as it will go.

You will now be able to get the headers in on that side but you will have to remove the starter motor (unless you have a mini-starter) and fit headers and starter at the same time.

Once that side is in let the engine back down and jack up the passenger side until the engine is leaning as far as possible over to the drivers side.

Now the passenger side headers will fit.

It is another good reason to install the engine from under the car in future because you can fit the headers first.

by **The Toy Peddler** » 10 Jan 2010 15:49

Just as I figured. One step forward, 2 back. Luckily I hadn't hooked anything else up.
Thanks for the help.
Paul

by **The Toy Peddler** » 21 Jan 2010 13:32

My neighbor is coming over with a lift today. Should I just lift it up high enough to put the headers on and then slip the whole thing back in, or will I need to still work it 1 side at a time bringing the headers up from below? BTW, I do have a mini-starter. Steering column is removed and there is no radiator in.
Paul

by **dave-r** » 22 Jan 2010 13:45

I suspect you will still have to put the headers in from below.

by **The Toy Peddler** » 22 Jan 2010 14:03

We're going to put this off until monday, so I'll let you know how it goes.
Paul

by **The Toy Peddler** » 26 Jan 2010 0:28

We went to lift the engine and install the headers. First the starter wasn't going in and we found that the torque converter wasn't seated properly, so the entire engine and tranny came out. We then took out the torque converter (stall converter) and worked the "shaft" a little and cleaned it up to better slide into the engine.
While pre-fitting the headers while out of the engine, we found an exhaust stud broken off which I hadn't noticed and 2 of them looked slightly bent. I will be replacing them with bolts instead of studs tomorrow, which should make them easier to work with in the future.
One of the headers had a high spot on the gasket side so I had to do a little filing to make sure it wouldn't have an exhaust leak. We took 4 steps backwards today, but that had to be done in order to move forward. If all goes well I will have the engine and tranny, starter and headers all in place in the car by the weekend, along with all glass.

by **dave-r** » 26 Jan 2010 9:26

If you mated the trans to the engine and the convertor was not fully engaged in the transmission you may have damaged the trans pump seals. You know when the convertor is fully engaged because it pushes back an inch or more behind the level of the belhousing edge.

by **The Toy Peddler** » 29 Jan 2010 1:26

We finally got around to working on the install of the headers and engine. We decided to just try putting in the engine and will do the tranny later from underneath. We were able to work the engine mostly into place and install the headers. We got it all the way in and found that the header on the drivers side was hitting the steering box. We were about 1/2" from being able to get the motor mounts in. The header on the other side was rubbing on the torsion bar and was only about 1/4" from hitting the inner fender near where the shock bolts through. I think the guy I bought this car from purchased second rate headers. We took the engine back out and marked the areas that need work. I might just see about getting a better set of headers. Even if I do modify these, they will probably cook the inner fender and also the steering box.
Any suggestions on what headers will absolutely work on a 440 with a power steering box? This was originally a 318, but the steering box etc. should be the same correct?

by **ianandjess** » 29 Jan 2010 3:26

gday paul do you know what type of headers you have if you go to summit racing they show each application the different headers are suitable for
cheers ian

by **dave-r** » 29 Jan 2010 8:55

TTI and Dougs Headers are the best fit. But the most expensive.

I do know that my old Hedman headers needed a lot of work to clear the steering box. Normally the passenger side inner fender clears OK if the engine is sat down straight. There is a fair bit of movement in the way the engine can sit on the mounts. In particular if the trans is not in.

by **The Toy Peddler** » 29 Jan 2010 13:08

Not sure of the brand. I suspect these were bought off ebay and are knock offs. The header flange was a bit rough and I had to file it to get rid of the high spots.
So today I will decide if I want to work with these, which will take a bit of pounding but I'm afraid it will comprimise one exhaust tube. It is close to fitting but needs at least 1/4" of work in 2 areas.
Paul

by **dave-r** » 29 Jan 2010 14:29

You could always fit manual steering. Lots more room for headers then.

by **drewcrane** » 29 Jan 2010 17:07

The Toy Peddler wrote:Not sure of the brand. I suspect these were bought off ebay and are knock offs. The header flange was a bit rough and I had to file it to get rid of the high spots.
So today I will decide if I want to work with these, which will take a bit of pounding but I'm afraid it will comprimise one exhaust tube. It is close to fitting but needs at least 1/4" of work in 2 areas.
Paul

yes most headers require some massaging/persuasion,

i have tti,s wit ps,and a ps cooler, and i have some BFH marks on parts of them
i did the starter 5 months ago and they sent me the wrong starter, so need less to say i have had my headers in and out completley about 5 or 6 times and i never love the job but i have gotten pretty good at it,

yes it would be nice to have a place to drop the car on top of the whole assembly , but it can be done with the engine in the car, it just takes patience, and alot of it, and it helps to have a buddie,and a big hammer :wink2:

by **The Toy Peddler** » 29 Jan 2010 22:29

It looks like these are Hedmans. I stopped by a muffler shop here locally and the guy has a Road Runner with a 440. He said he tried Hedmans and the didn't work so he bought some Hookers that fit perfectly. I checked mine against his old ones and sure enough they were the same.
I just called Summit and ordered some ceramic comp headers. They should be here in 3 days and I will update you on how they fit!
Paul

by **dave-r** » 30 Jan 2010 10:12

Are those ones not for race cars?

by **The Toy Peddler** » 30 Jan 2010 14:42

The super comps are the ones built for racing and I believe are a heavier gauge with 2" o.d. The ones I bought are for slightly modified cars that won't see a lot of racing and are 1 7/8" o.d. I really don't plan on doing much racing. This car will mainly be a promotional car for my website and going to a few cruises.
Do you think these will be a problem? I didn't really want to spend the extra $300 for 1/8" diff in o.d. and slightly heavier gauge.
Paul

by **drewcrane** » 30 Jan 2010 15:54

The Toy Peddler wrote:The super comps are the ones built for racing and I believe are a heavier gauge with 2" o.d. The ones I bought are for slightly modified cars that won't see a lot of racing and are 1 7/8" o.d. I really don't plan on doing much racing. This car will mainly be a promotional car for my website and going to a few cruises.
Do you think these will be a problem? I didn't really want to spend the extra $300 for 1/8" diff in o.d. and slightly heavier gauge.
Paul

oh yea you dont need the extra size, your not gonna race anyway,yea get the smaller tube, no need to spend the extra money either :thumbsup:

by **The Toy Peddler** » 30 Jan 2010 17:25

I just measured the Hedman's I was going to put on and they are 1 3/4", so these will be a bit bigger. I just hope they fit! I like the idea that they are ceramic coated and should help keep down the heat a bit in the engine compartment and there will be little clearance near the steering box and passengers side inside fender. Hopefully I won't need to use heat tape.
Now back to that damn headliner! UGGHHH!!!
Paul

by **The Toy Peddler** » 02 Feb 2010 19:46

I am really glad the others didn't fit! These things are hot.....er.....cool!
The engine has a lot of chrome on it, and these will just make it all come together. I don't have to worry about the paint peeling and looking crappy down the road. This should fit well. I will probably have the engine back in in a couple days then it's back to the headliner and wiring.....and more beer!

by **dave-r** » 02 Feb 2010 20:35

The pipe for cylinder #3 might still need a dent to clear a power steering box.

by **The Toy Peddler** » 02 Feb 2010 23:05

I hope not! I sure don't want to pound on these pretty things. I'll let you know how it goes.
Paul

by **drewcrane** » 02 Feb 2010 23:38

yes very pretty indeed , im with dave, i will be shocked if they dont require some manipulating, and persuading :s022:

by **The Toy Peddler** » 03 Feb 2010 0:31

If I have to tweek them, won't that ruin the ceramic integrity?

by **drewcrane** » 03 Feb 2010 0:48

The Toy Peddler wrote:If I have to tweek them, won't that ruin the ceramic integrity?

no mine are still solid no cracks , its a thin coating, and you will find it will change color after you get a few miles, dont worry about having to adjust them ,you will find that some minor tweaking is all it should take,take your time and it will go , you have no choice now :thumbsup:

by **Jon** » 03 Feb 2010 4:16

Those pipes look really nice. Hope you don't have to ding em Paul.

A friend bought Sanderson headers (Hi buck Chevy stuff) and had to put a dent to clear the starter. He looses points at every car show cause of it. Go figure.

by **The Toy Peddler** » 04 Feb 2010 22:49

We're about to try fitting them and putting the engine in. I pulled out the disclaimer from the package...it says.
Do not break an engine in with ceramic headers. This will void the warranty!
I guess they are supposed to be incrementally heated and cooled and not run for a total break in period. What is this?
Has anyone here broken in an engine using new ceramic headers?
Paul

by **dave-r** » 05 Feb 2010 8:28

I did. Completely buggered the finish.

The break in can make the headers red hot. Exhaust temp is higher when the engine is revved with no load. Plus in my case I was a bit lean.

My pipes are now a dull grey.

by **The Toy Peddler** » 05 Feb 2010 13:19

Any suggestions? I don't want to try to fit a stock manifold and pipes then pull everything again to put in the headers. This really sucks. Do I really have to break the engine in, bringing the engine to that high of a temp?
If I had known this I wouldn't have gotten the ceramics.
Paul

Oh Yeah Baby!