The Dodge Challenger Message Board

whats u guys opionion on these plugs out of the new motor......timing set at 10 degress initial.....34 total......carb came with 84 in rear and 76 ur front......i changed to 82's and 74's...this is what the plugs looked like

guess no one is around today....interesting.....

Doesnt look that bad. A plug reading should be done at full throttle under load,(not just sitting and zinging the motor), with a new plug then immediately shut down down. Removed and inspected under a good light source and possibly a magnifying glass. Specks are bad, thats detonation/preignition, black is rich, tan good, black oily wet bad! You want to zero in on the insualtor just below the firing point, then follow this all the way down into the plug body if you can. A tan colored insulator is what you want to see. If it's a bit white thats too lean, a bit dark is too rich.

10 degrees initial is WAY to little to allow for a clean burn in particular at idle and lower rpms.

You want at least 14 degrees and, if you have a hotter than stock camshaft, probably as much as 18 degrees initial to get a nice clean burn at idle.

interesting............i used those numbers....10 and 34 because thats what my engine builder said to do.....so i get confused on what to do at that point i hurt the engine then he;ll say...u didnt do what i said....but your not the first to tell me that the intial timing should be higher than ten......i appreciate the input as well.......anything to look out for if i increase initial timing....so i dont hurt anything.......some people have said im trying to get a race motor to act like a street motor ....some things im going have to live with.....

ok now that i checked with the guy that set the timing and carb....he saiys with my cam that i have,....i need around 18 intial....cause my motor needs to idle at 1000 to 1100 rpm in drive.....so thats where im at but im still burning rich at a idle....

You need about 900-950rpm at idle.

I already told you EXACTLY how to set up your distributor in another thread.

Sort that out first and then do the following.

Put a vacuum gauge onto the port that used to feed the distrbutor vac can. If it is a Holley it is the one on the metering block above the idle mixture screws.

See if there is any vacuum signal there.

If there is then you are not on the idle circuits at all. The throttle blades are too far open. So you are on the main jets at idle.

If this is the case let me know and I will talk you through fixing that. I need to know what carb it is though.

okay did i mention that i have a mechanical dizzy...no vacuum port any where.......the car wont idle at 8 or 900....cause when u put it in gear it wants to stall.....it seems to want to live around 1000 to 1100 in nuetral then tapers too 850 900 in gear idle......the lift is 568 at .50 too......the carb is quick fuel technologies 850 vcumm secdaries.....its a proform body with qft..spin on it.......

an actually guys....the performance seems to be awsome......no bog or anything.....maybe i have to live with a lil smoke out the pipes with my cam and converter at idle, have to drive it again and check out the rearview mirror to see if it puffs fuel on a throttle romp?......it smokes a lil when i free rev it in the garage at about 4 to 4500 rpm though

I got mine set at 10*, spot on, with a 34*, advance curve. got this from Don, at F.B.O. at 4secondsflat.com. Great Ignition system, by the way. Dave, I've alway's heard the term "Pinging", here in the State's Where, did you guy's come up with the term, "Pinking"? Just wondering.
Pat

It makes a sound like "Pink pink pink" Pat. Definatly not "Ping".

73challengerguy. Your engine is a VERY similar spec to mine. I know exactly what it needs. I am not going to offer you any advice any more because I am wasting my time.
There is a good reason why your engine stalls when you put it in gear. You are making no torque at low rpms and need a 3000rpm stall torque converter. Also you cannot be running on the idle circuits so why do you expect it to idle correctly in or out of gear? But never mind. As long as you are happy with it like that. It can stay like that.

Pat.
I find it hard to imagine Don at FBO would say only 10 degrees initial. Not unless he also said to put your vacuum can on a manifold vacuum source so that you have vacuum advance on top of that at idle.
I know Don and how he works very well. I am suprised he didn't ask you to do a "Kickback test" on the starter to see how much initial you can get away with.

I may be a bit brain damaged these days but I sure can still tune the hell out of a 440.

you know i got on here thinking people would be cool and helpful......i never one argued with anyone and now u respond like this?.....im just asking questions.....guess ill find another mopar thread were people dont treat you like a dick......DAVE

Here 'we' go again! Didnt anyone watch Benny Hill& Monty Python when they were a kid? Am I the only one?

and what does that mean.......?

im just a normal guy not having a ton of money...or i would just belly up to a local speed and pay up to tune my car......it took me nine years of scrimping and saving to do this project.....did i buy all the right parts....probably not....but i did the best i could.....opinions are like assholes, every one has one. a guy can get pretty mixed up if he listens to toomany know it alls......i got on here thinking....everyone loves mopars on here....were else would u go to take in advice....i dont know everything...never said i did.....and i have always been thankful and acknowledged any one on here that helped me.....look at my threads....just pisses me off to get a response like that...when all i was doing was asking opinions of fellow challenger fans.......i dont have alot of money left to go changing carbs...converters,...ect.....i need to make the best of what i already invested in......ive spent alot of money and time....i have the time....but have spent almost all my savings on this car.....jsut needed some help and advice....not to be scolded like a freakin 18 year old..........geez

dave-r wrote: .

Pat.
I find it hard to imagine Don at FBO would say only 10 degrees initial. Not unless he also said to put your vacuum can on a manifold vacuum source so that you have vacuum advance on top of that at idle.
I know Don and how he works very well. I am suprised he didn't ask you to do a "Kickback test" on the starter to see how much initial you can get.

He did tell me to do that test, Dave. I got his tuning book, also. My dizzy is getting full vacuum, all the time. Don told me to do connect it to the full vacuum, port. If I set my timing any further than 10* initial. Car go's Pink, Pink, Pink, as soon as it warm's up.

what kind of set up are you running guy.....?

Pat.
With the vacuum as well you will have a lot more than 10 degrees at idle. Challenger guy does not have that option (no vacuum advance).

73challengerguy.
You either ignor me or do the complete opposite of everything I suggest.
How do you think that makes me feel? It's an insult and I am wasting my time.

dave i was just looking for opinions.....like i said....im getting pulled around in many directions from my engine guy,....quick fuel, and peolpe on the post......so its very difficult . im not saying anybodys right or wrong....just looking for options and opinions.......dont take this wrong but my builder isnt going to listen to me too much if i tell him i did things i learned off the internet a million miles away.....im not saying he is god or anyone else is.....just asking for suggestions......im not ignoring you or dissing you....ive things to the car from suggestions off of this site as well........im trying to take alot of opinions and advice and draw from it.....i appreciate the advice and help...from here.....i do

I'm just being grumpy. True to form. Sorry for being an ass.

we all can be grumpy i guess .....anyway apology accepeted my penastar mate............

Hi. My experience confirms Dave's points.

I'm running a 440 with a "rumpy idle cam".
I'm also running a converter with a low stall speed.
Fortunately, I also have fuel injection.

What prevents my engine from stalling, when shifting from neutral to 1'st, is the IdleAirController.....No way I could get away without it,...unless we're talking 1100 RPM +.....

I actually had to put my settings such that the IAC provided plenty more air, when my idle drops below 50 RPM from my normal idle......ca 900 RPM.

**********
My suggestion is,....compromise....
Get the idle decent,....and learn how to drive without stalling the engine.
Using the left foot on the brake,....and the rigth on the accelerator works....with some practice....
Hey,...have you heard anyone driving a radically cammed V8 with a manual transmission ? They need to rew it before releasing the clutch...sonds almost like they don't know how to drive........
...but after you get used to the sound,....its sounds kind of cool...

Good luck...

As for the AF-ratio,...I strongly recommend connecting a Lamda sond whilst driving the car.....preferbly on a dyno...
I've read good things aboat irridium spark plugs...running them at the moment,....but too early to share any experience....

dave-r wrote:Pat.
With the vacuum as well you will have a lot more than 10 degrees at idle. Challenger guy does not have that option (no vacuum advance)

Hello, Dave. I did initially, set the thing to 10* with vacuum on. Don said that it would not run, with timed vacuum. It run's very well, now. I kind of went back to real, old school. Used Premium Fuel. Nowday's, 92 Octain, in my wood's. NO Booster! Drove it, and adjusted it, until there was no "Pink". I can still time the car without the vacuum. It's more like 9* BTC. I don't understand exactly what, my timing should be at, with that F.B.O., Ignition. But, I can hear just fine. I know what my engine like's, without "Pinking". I know, it's "Hick", but, I got it timed a hair, before the "Pink". Start's right up. Shut's, right down. No Pink!!! I know it's no big deal but, I love it when those hopped up, "Ricer's", pull up to me at a light. Why, do they all want to race? It's a game of pick or choose. They all wan't to race. Unlike, those young dumb one's, I alway,s look ahead. Sometime's, I just roll forward and, watch them get pulled over. My 340, alway's like's rice! I can't remember, exactly, what my Timing Spec's are but, Super Guru, Nephew, put it on his machine at work and said. "That's Perfect!" Good enough, for my driver, "Bow-Tie", And "Rice Eater!"

At a guess I would say that with the 10 degrees initial with it disconnected, it probably idles at something like 20-25 degrees once the vac can is connected to a manifold source.

The beauty of doing it like that is that the timing is retarded enough to make the engine start easy but then the timing shoots up as soon as the engine fires.

When you open the throttle wide the vacuum dropps off and you are running only on the mechanical advance.

This is not the way the factory did it and it is not the way I do it but there is nothing wrong with it in principle.

However I prefer the timing to be under my control. I know exactly how many degrees I have at any rpm. With manifold vacuum on it depends on throttle position.

Hey Pat, I'm running the FBO system also and timing by ear. I can now run about 10 degrees before TDC without pinging since stepping up two sizes on the secondary main jets as Jimiboy recommended. It is a little flat on the top end though so may drop back down one.

With the F.B.O., Ignition, I gave up on my old timing light. My nephew, Mike has the fancy one. It's tuned by ear. Ran the dizzy, a little loose. Tightened it up when, it felt good for me. Just short of the "Pink". I know, I could do better than, this but, I'm on a tight budget, as well. Jon, my car hesitate's a little at first jump but, shit's and get's, ever after! If, I powerbrake, even a little, No hesitation.
Dave, I have vacuum, secondarie's. Don't think that matter's though, in my case.
Thank's, Pat

I just found this link covering sprak plug reading. It might intrest someone.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_suppo ... aqread.asp