The Dodge Challenger Message Board

I am in the process of rebuilding the engine on a Massey Ferguson tractor with a 3 cylinder Perkins Diesel. I discovered some abnormal wear on one of the rockers. The valves were pretty loose probably .060 clearance and thus this damage occurred. I thought to grind the tip flush but am concerned about losing hardness in the metal. The valve tip seems OK no mushrooming but maybe i should replace them also.

Also on one of the tappets there is a flat wear mark on the face. I doubt it is spinning at least not consistently. Think the cam needs to be replaced also?

Jon, with .060 clearance in the guides, the valves are not properly positioned and thus the abnormal wear on the rocker pads. The only way to keep the valve centered on the seat and in the guide is to have the proper clearance in the guide itself. The valve tips may be stellite. This is a very hard material and they may or may not have them, I would check with a Perkins dealer first before you grind the tips. You can re-harden the tips with a hot flame and quench them in oil, then repeat, quench. This will re-harden them if they are a ferrous material,(steel). The shafts can be 'raised' by shims but his will place the rocker pads further out on the tips. Grinding the shaft pads will lower the arms and place them closer to the pivot point. Either way, I think you will have to address the clearance problem before changing any geometry. BTW, what is the required valve guide clearance? In a gasoline engine it's a little less than .001 for the intake and a little over .001 for the exhaust, the exhaust needs more clearance because of the heat form expansion and the fact that the pressure keeps the oil pull down at a minimum. The cooler intake valve doesnt expand as much and requires less clearnace in the guide to help control oil seepage into the chamber. A 'loose' valve, from too much clearance will eventually enlarge and pound out the valve seat thus lowering performance and inducing detonation from oil contamination into the chamber. I would also measure the length of the rockers, they may be a tad shorter/longer than the rest. Hope this helps.

Yes it was an oil burner. The valve guides are definitely shot. I can wiggle the valve with the spring still attached. New seats are in the works also. A few seals had actually come loose and were floating on the stem.

The rockers maybe tough to find as it is an86 model. They appear to be forged steel also. How hot do you need to get the tip before quenching in oil?

The lifters are adjustable which is good just lack of maintenance on the lash. With all that pounding from the excess clearance I think a new cam maybe in order. On the one flat tappet, I have always heard you can't replace just one on a seasoned camshaft set?

I am also doing pistons sleeves and bearings. Thought initially just a valve job but the notch at the top off the ring travel must be at least .005.

Red Hot Jon but not white hot. ,dunk it in some motor oil to cool it off. Repeat a few times. Basically your adding carbon to the metal a little at a time. And just the one bad tip. The factory hardening is always best because it's deeper than you can get it. I would also measure each valve's height. Was a compression or better yet a leakdown test done on the cylinders? If the leakage is fairly low then the valve seats might be OK. After you have replaced the guides smear a little blue dykem or lipstick on the valve tips and assemble the engine. Then cycle the engine over a few times. Stop. and remove the rocker cover, observe the wear pattern on the valve tips. If it meets your specs should be fine. If you were to replace the cam I would also replace the lifters. Same as a gas engine they are a 'matched set' and have a wear pattern that matches each individual part. I love oil burners

Thanks for the help Eddie.

Finally, I have the engine out and completely disassembled. If you think pulling a Challenger motor is time consuming, try splitting a 5 ton tractor in half to get the motor out. You English.

I planned to replace the cam bearing but it appears there are none. Has anyone heard of a cam that rides on the iron block.
Sorry no pictures my camera is down also.

I bet it's a heavy sucker! Do the cam journals have oil holes?

Only the center one (of 3) has an oiling hole along with a 120 degree slot on the cam journal. I noticed there are "oil ponds" between them so that must be how the outside journals get lubrication.

My supplier said bearings are not used so if there is excess clearance it's time for a new block. Looks to be about .003 to .004 which seems within reason. I asked if anyone made a hotter cam for it and he just laughed.

Jon wrote:Only the center one (of 3) has an oiling hole along with a 120 degree slot on the cam journal. I noticed there are "oil ponds" between them so that must be how the outside journals get lubrication.

My supplier said bearings are not used so if there is excess clearance it's time for a new block. Looks to be about .003 to .004 which seems within reason. I asked if anyone made a hotter cam for it and he just laughed.

Given we use 15W-40 or heavier oil I would think you should be just fine Jon! I like the idea of a Hot Perkins!

Jon wrote:Finally, I have the engine out and completely disassembled. If you think pulling a Challenger motor is time consuming, try splitting a 5 ton tractor in half to get the motor out. You English. .

When was that thing made Jon?

Massey-Ferguson is a Canadian company by the way. Not British.

But Perkins was British up until 1959.

Perkins Engines was formed as F. Perkins Ltd. on the 7th June 1932 in Peterborough, England by Frank Perkins. The company was sold to Massey-Ferguson Ltd. in 1959 and later became part of LucasVarity plc. Caterpillar purchased the Perkins Engines Company from LucasVarity in 1998 for US $1.35 billion.

Sounds like you know quite a bit about all types motors Eddie. I never would have guessed there were no oiling ports to all of the cam journals.

Interesting information Dave I need to research the history of the Massey heritage.

The tractor is a 1986 industrial model. The name tag reads Massey Ferguson Manufacturing LTD -Manchester England-. The Perkins engine may well be from another country though. I have seen numerous names next to the Massey such as Massey-Harris for instance. They may have have been bought several times. The injector pump is made by Lucas (UK) so that connection makes sense.

I was only kidding about the "you English" comment. It is a very compact (and well made) tractor with the engine actually part of the frame structure. That's why the machine must be split in half to get the motor out. There are 4 different break down sections that can be utilized to access the front end, motor, transmission, and rear end. A boom (or another tractor in my case) is a necessity to lift the heavy parts though.

Yeah I know you were just yanking my chain on the "English" comment.

Some interesting history on Wikipedia.

Massy;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massey_Ferguson

Ferguson;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_Company

Although a Canadian Company Massey-Ferguson probably had factories all over what was the Briitish Empire and then the "Commonwealth". They do have a Headquarters in Coventry, Great Britain.

There are a lot of guys in our mopar club into old tractors (usually much older than this though) but being a city boy it is all very strange to me.

Jon wrote:Sounds like you know quite a bit about all types motors Eddie. I never would have guessed there were no oiling ports to all of the cam journals.

Interesting information Dave I need to research the history of the Massey heritage.

The tractor is a 1986 industrial model. The name tag reads Massey Ferguson Manufacturing LTD -Manchester England-. The Perkins engine may well be from another country though. I have seen numerous names next to the Massey such as Massey-Harris for instance. They may have have been bought several times. The injector pump is made by Lucas (UK) so that connection makes sense.

I was only kidding about the "you English" comment. It is a very compact (and well made) tractor with the engine actually part of the frame structure. That's why the machine must be split in half to get the motor out. There are 4 different break down sections that can be utilized to access the front end, motor, transmission, and rear end. A boom (or another tractor in my case) is a necessity to lift the heavy parts though.

I know just enough to be considered 'dangerous' My neighbor has a 1954 FarmAll with a unique gasoline/diesel engine. The tractor is a 10 Ton I think. It starts on the gasoline engine which is very small, then 'converts over to the 4 cyl. diesel once started. Interesting concept! He showed me how to re-build the diesel fuel pump. It was pretty intense! His also has to be split 'down' the middle to remove the engine but so far it seems to run OK. City folk are strange Dave!

Thanks for the links and information guys. It maybe boring to some but I find it quite interesting the time line and many companies involved with Massey and Ferguson. Coincidentally, my best friend has that last name and I always wondered why the called him Fergie..

Though it is a later model it has paid for it self many times over in business and, working in my backyard. I will post a few pics when I get my 3 year old made in China camera back from repair.

Well, I have all of the machining done and the work looks pretty good so far. Luckily the parts man knew his stuff too and the are correct also.

As I was talking to the machinist he mentioned to use 15w-40 Diesel motor oil in the engine at break in, and beyond, as the U.S. has removed the Zinc from automobile oil. He said the cam is usually the victim in this governmental change and I should start using the Delo 400 or Rotella in my other older vehicles as well (such as the Challenger). The Zinc additive helps lube the camshaft and lifters the way they were designed to avoid wear.

Has anyone else heard of this, and what oil do you run in your vehicles? I would think a 15w-40 weight oil would be OK for most of my engines since it doesn't get really cold here.

He is correct and this is the advice many engine builders are giving.

But watch out they don't remove the additive from the diesel oil too. I heard they were going to. In which case you should use a Moly additive.

Dave is correct. Jon, your engine machinist is also correct. It's a 'tizzy' they have put us in I tell you. When I was at the machine shop a few months ago I asked those guys how many Older V-8' engines have been destroyed from lack of ZDDP that the major manufacturers have recently omitted from their lubricants. They said too many! Diesel Motor oil has also been removing this high pressure additive as well, there is one 'type' of motor oil I have seen that has remained the same and thats Motorcycle oil. It's ususally loaded with the stuff! I use Amsoil personally and love it, it provides ample ZDDP protection and the idle is a little smoother. FYI

I was leaning towards the Chevron Delo 400 as it is readily available at a reasonable price. I looked at he container and it is now LE Low Emission. I though that they may have changed the formula already but found this forum with an analysis. (along with comments).

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/60602 ... lysis.html

I can't discern exactly what the numbers mean maybe you guys can help?

If the current version of the oil contains phosphorous, zinc, and molybdenum (as I think it is saying) then you are onto a good one.

Jon wrote:I was leaning towards the Chevron Delo 400 as it is readily available at a reasonable price. I looked at he container and it is now LE Low Emission. I though that they may have changed the formula already but found this forum with an analysis. (along with comments).

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/60602 ... lysis.html

I can't discern exactly what the numbers mean maybe you guys can help?

Jon, I am a little familar with Delo/Delvac/Rotella all great oils but is this the oil you are going to break the new diesel re-build in with? The reason I ask is most Diesel manufacturers suggest regular non-synthetic oil for break-in then you can switch to synthetic. I only have 16k on my Cummins Diesel and wont use synthetic until 60k as suggested in the owners manual. It is especially important to have the piston rings seat on a diesel than a regular gasoline engine due to the ultra high compression in a diesel. My Cummins has almost 18:1 compression. You also have to remember the spring pressures in a low reving diesel arent as high as a gasoline engine, therefore I would use a good grade conventional diesel oil such as Rotella, Valvoline, Mobil ect then switch to the synthetic. If this oil is for your Challenger disregard!

I have both Rotella and Delo 400 LE in the garage. I don't think they are synthetic tough. As for the ring break-in, the machinist said basically the same thing. He didn't want a lot of oil on the pistons rings or cylinder walls. "Don't dunk the piston in a pan of oil upon assembly" to be exact.

I figure with bleeding the injectors most of the oil will dissipate so I plan to overcompensate a little for that reason. The cam lobes sit in a pool of oil so they should be OK with the extended cranking.

Sounds like a great build plan you have going on Jon. Let us know how it turns out.

airfuelEddie wrote:

Jon wrote:Only the center one (of 3) has an oiling hole along with a 120 degree slot on the cam journal. I noticed there are "oil ponds" between them so that must be how the outside journals get lubrication.

My supplier said bearings are not used so if there is excess clearance it's time for a new block. Looks to be about .003 to .004 which seems within reason. I asked if anyone made a hotter cam for it and he just laughed.

Given we use 15W-40 or heavier oil I would think you should be just fine Jon! I like the idea of a Hot Perkins!

Checking the new cam it seems the lobes are rounded compared to the old one. Should help with float at the 2500 RPM redline.

Using Vernier calipers the lift seems to be about .008 higher too. Curious if the long term wear could take that much off the cam surface.

As for duration I have no way of knowing and getting specs from the supplier is not a possibility. There is a non-turbo version Perkins engine also from the late eighties and wondering how the cam specs would run between the two. I would think less lift and duration on a blown engine. Hopefully it's just an updated version of the original cam?

The lobes on the new one look more like I would expect.

You can measure duration directly with a degree wheel and dial gauge as long as you use a solid lifter or can put the dial guage directly on the cam lobe.

What do you think Dave, are the rounded lobes on the new cam an innovation in technology. It would seem a flaw to design a profile that would allow a lifter to skip off the top of a peaked lobe as the original.

One thing that hasn't changed is getting the wrong parts though.

I have been on hold for the past week waiting for the exhaust valves that didn't come with the rebuild package. I was suspect of the match so when that arrrived yesterday, I blued and checked the seats. Sure enough, the new valves were only contacting a thin section on the perimeter edge.

I called the machinist about the location and patch width on the seats and his first question was are the valve faces the same diameter. Well no, off by .050, (which can cause a burnt valve). Man I am glad I didn't rush it and install them without checking.

He then suggested to use and regrind the old exhaust valve faces to keep me going. Now the engine rebuild is pretty much complete.

I Hope to install the motor this Sunday if I can persuade a friend or two to help out.