Project 500 E-85 Flex Fuel E.F.I. Mega Squirt • 21 • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **Moparman1972** » 07 Apr 2009 22:13

That is the beauty of aluminum heads, a good welder can fix anything. It makes it much more approachable for a person to modify and learn on.

I'll also post pictures of broken harley heads! A lot of these aluminum heads are from old panhead and shovelhead bikes, and owners have no choice but to try and get the original fixed. You would not believe the "Before" pictures on the heads they bring in. You're basically machining a new head by the end of it. Eddie the only way you would have to buy a new head is if you cut that one in half.

What is involved in reworking the carburetor for your uses, by the way?

by **Eddie** » 08 Apr 2009 2:28

Cool! Thanks Dylan. First thing is to rebuild it with some alcohol resistant gaskets and floats. Then I'll need to contact a carb shop and get some new metering blocks for both ends to accept much larger jets that flow 30% more volume. I'm trying to achieve a 9:1 Air fuel ratio. I'll need an assortment of jets unless I can get a metering block pre-configured with a few jets up&down a few steps. Other than that the airbleeds which are fixed on this model may need to be drilled out with a 'pencil drill' but I'll need to enlist the help of a carb 'guru' to get me in the right direction. It's gonna need a fat flow curve I'll bet! :thumbsup:

I dont want to put a lot of money in the carby cause it's gonna get 'squirted' after it's tuned with the carb.

by **Moparman1972** » 08 Apr 2009 18:08

Haha 9:1? What do your exhaust sensors go out to? Aren't the narrowband sensors only from like 12:1 to 14:1?

by **Eddie** » 08 Apr 2009 19:17

Moparman1972 wrote:Haha 9:1? What do your exhaust sensors go out to? Aren't the narrowband sensors only from like 12:1 to 14:1?

Yes, you are sharp to notice that Dylan! The narrow band sensors only 'operate' at near 14:7 to 1 or stoimetric. The wide band sensors like the Bosch operate at a much wider parameter than the NB sensors. This is why they are pre-heated, to put the sensor in it's 'natural' state of working conditions. Hot at least 900 degrees before they work like they should switching from Lean to Rich at the 14:7 to 1 ratio. On the Wide Band you can alter fuels, the ratio of Lean to Rich because as we know most power is made at 12.5 AF for gasoline,(E-85 is around 7 to 1), therefore the Wide Band is a greater tuning aid than the narrow band, however some manufacturers are using the wide band in OEM apps because the vehicle is Flex fuel capable and needs the wide parameter of working conditions that the WB affords. :thumbsup:

The O2 Sensor just measures how much oxygen is left in the exhaust stream, thats all it does. :thumbsup:

by **Eddie** » 09 Apr 2009 16:53

Today was a good day. I took the backcut valves and first flowed the cylinder with the stock valves to establish as close to scientific conditions as I could. The flow was 281 CFM Intake@.600 with 4.220 bore adaptor. Exhaust was 182 CFM both at .600 lift. Then I installed my backcut and polished valves. The flow was 294 CFM@.600 and the exhaust was 194 CFM This showed me that the backcut valve is the single largest improvement for time and money spent. Gain was Intake=13CFM and Exhaust=12 CFM I think with the 4.375 adaptor it flow over 300 CFM maybe 305 also the gain was thru the lift range not just at peak lift actually showing a gain of almost 20 CFM at some low lifts on the intake and 16 CFM on the exhaust. Note, it's vital you have a clean 'dressed' 90 degree grinding wheel. The angle on the valve grinding plate was set at 32 degrees but some 'jockeying' of the plate was necesssary, and of course "sharpie" the seat to show you were the grind was made. You dont want to touch the seat!

by **dave-r** » 09 Apr 2009 20:01

Good work Eddie. :s017:

by **ianandjess** » 11 Apr 2009 11:02

great stuff there eddie i wish i had access gear like that but its great that you are able to share your results with us it gives us all a better understanding of these things
cheers ian

by **Moparman1972** » 17 Apr 2009 0:28

Here's some older pictures of harley heads with the air splitter and also some work done to lead up towards the valve guide. This is not as extreme as the heads I was talking about, because the area around the guide does not protrude into the airflow as much.

The second picture (or first, I never get them in the right order) shows how the exhaust port is actually just filled up with weld in the bottom 1/5 of the port, with a flat bottom. This helps exhaust flow in harley heads.

by **Eddie** » 17 Apr 2009 14:38

Thanks Dylan, Beautiful work by your father! I was given a new Engine project with unlimited funding. It's not a MoPar so I wont discuss it here, but I want to try a few things that are 'different' on the heads. One of those things I would like to try is the use of a splitter like the 1st pic. However, round ports arent good for flow, which is why D-Shaped or any semi circle that has an 'interruptor' built into the edge has a dramatic effect on flow. I can 'tune' a port on the flow bench by placing a pencil tip near the floor and moving it around along the floor. Which is why the radius was so effective! It started to click. The trumpets seen on the old F-1 cars when the engines were exposed show what I'm talking about. The injector trumpets were oval shaped with a flat leading edge on one side of the radius. 360 circle hampers flow. The next thing I want to test is the stagnation points along the roof of the port. I'll be very busy in the next few months, but maybe not depending on my physical condition. I may have to have surgery this summer.

Which will put me out for a while. :fight:

by **dave-r** » 17 Apr 2009 15:11

I can understand why a splitter would work in a intake port like that motorcycle one. It makes perfect sense given how shallow the port is and the size ratio between the port diameter and the valve guide.

But I doubt very much that it would improve flow in a 440 head.
These photos are of my own very mildly ported 906 heads. You can see that the basic shape flows around and ALONG the path up to the valve guide.

Maybe making the leading edge of the valve guide sharper would help some though?

Also a step between the exhaust port and header pipe is always benificial. But again the shape of a 440 exhaust port gives you that anyway and you should never "gasket match" the exhaust port at the bottom edge.

by **dave-r** » 17 Apr 2009 15:16

Actually, where you place the step out of the exhaust is vital.

If the primary pipe inside diameter is more than 1/8” larger than the actual port opening in the head, the header flange bolt pattern can be slotted slightly to raise the centerline of the primary pipe above the center of the port, until the bottom of the pipe just matches. This puts the pipe's effective center closer to the most active area of gas flow, and the mis-alignment at the roof allows the highest-pressure gas an easier path away from the port; also adds some degree of anti-reversion.

If controlling reversion is more important than maximum port flow (e.g. primary diameter is very large), Vizard suggests the mis-match should be at the bottom of the port where gas flow is slowest, and therefore most likely to reverse-flow at low engine speed.

From http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/header-tech-c.htm

by **Eddie** » 17 Apr 2009 15:43

I agree with Dave, the floor exit is one area I didnt touch on the exhaust side of my 440 source heads. The shape of Dave's exhaust port is beautifully done and seems to match the shape of the source exhausts perfectly with a centerline of the exit 1/2 the way up the port. The reversion edge, is one area thats vital as Vizard says. On one exhaust port #5, the port exit and a slight mismatch and I carefully matched it up by enlarging the radius gradually and blending it to the roof, then slightly cutting the edge to match the rest of the ports and the gasket line. I didnt deeply cut it to fit. :lol:

Also not sure if a sharp guide would help Dave. All the ported intake I've ever seen used a 'bullet' nosed giude, I think this is more for allowing a larger bowl area as the valve is lifted off the seat and the gain is seen only after reaching a certain height. The cams I am used to working with arent that 'manly' :lol:

Nice work there Dave! :thumbsup:

by **Eddie** » 17 Apr 2009 16:01

And as Dave pointed out, the short port leading into the chamber probably has to have the shape because unlike a wedge head the intake runners or lack thereof determine the direction the intake charge flows into the head. With the long intake runner in the intake port of the head this runner curves into the chamber due to the pushrod location, and whether by accident or purposefully built, this gives the intake charge a venturi effect into the chamber for dual purpose engines. For competition use only and very high RPM's the port volume becomes more important than intake charge velocity. At least this is my limited understanding :lol:

And the mods I am accomplishing are 'geared' for the exploitation of these attributes. :thumbsup:

by **Moparman1972** » 17 Apr 2009 18:08

There is not as much room for improvement on car heads as there is on a Harley, like Dave said. Some people see the huge gains on a harley head and think, "Wow, I can't imagine the power this would make when you apply it to 8 cylinders!" Unfortunately, it is not that simple.

I know for a fact that chevy 350 heads, with a splitter similar to the harley heads I showed, can pick up quite a few CFM. Mopar is new to me in terms of flowbench work, but I would think that there is still a good chunk of room for improvement.

I'm sure Eddie will be able to wring out every last CFM if he sets his sights on it. I am unfortunately trailing behind in getting my Stealth heads, but soon I'll be able to throw them on the flowbench and start experimenting.

by **fal308** » 18 Apr 2009 19:24

Eddie, have you ever looked at any early Hemi heads? From what I've heard from my old drag racing friends and what I've read, quite a bit can be done in them.I may have to bring you my spare heads if I ever get up your way.

by **Eddie** » 18 Apr 2009 20:09

The early Hemi had more of a true dome chamber than the GenII. I dont remember what the valve angles were but I think they were more 'favorable' than the GenII Hemi which had to have the exhaust compromised and tipped inboard a bit to allow for engine compartment assembly line body drops. As far as 'working' those heads, I would be concerned about 3 things. Water under the spring seats and how this relates to spring selection for your cam, valve sizes and are the valves you want tulip shaped or nail head, and lastly port volume, how many CC's are the intake ports and how big of an engine are you planning. The Hemi's abscence of a pushrod pinch point and the fact that the ports are a straight shot in/out make this head a porters dream! Sure Barc, I would love to 'hog out' those sewer sized ports on your dome motor! :lol:

A great reference book and parts availability suppliers wholesale jobbers are found in Tex Smiths, Early Chrysler Hemi Book. I bought mine from The GoodGuys Nostalgia Meet in 2004 at 'The Big Go",(Indy). http://www.est1946.com/texsmithsthecomp ... rhemi.aspx

by **Eddie** » 18 Apr 2009 21:58

Check these intake ports out! The holes are for the Alcohol injector nozzles I think. 410 Outlaw sprint Car engine 950+H.P. mechanical alcohol Injected 10,000 RPM's at 1800Lbs. :lol:

Ported by Jones Engineering, terre haute, In.

by **fal308** » 19 Apr 2009 0:23

Sweet Lord look at those holes :s007:

Don't have the cam specs handy but it's basically an aggressive RV cam. Heavy on the torque :s017:

I had the factory cam reground many many years ago (before these Hemis became popular). I had it regound by Isky and am going to eventually put it in my old early '74 RC. Smith adjustable pushrods, don't recall the lifters right now. probably stick with factory valves etc. though I do have a set of Mickey Thompson blower pistons sitting in my basement :s003:

The engine haad approx. 30k miles when pulled and IIRC may only need scuffing or at the most .010 over :thumbsup:

It's been twenty years since I measured though so I may be wrong. What's pretty amazing is that these 354 Chryslers' can be punched out .125 :lol:

as long as you have a good core :thumbsup:

by **Moparman1972** » 19 Apr 2009 2:47

Haha that wing leading up to the guide looks familiar.

by **Eddie** » 19 Apr 2009 15:29

Moparman1972 wrote:Haha that wing leading up to the guide looks familiar.

Yeah Dylan thats why I said I was interested in you and your fathers work, it gives me some ideas I would like to try out. But then again look at the size of those ports, and they are raised considerably. I think this helps to start the column of airflow 'down' into the port chambers easing the transition of the long side radius or the roof. It also has to work in conjunction with those alcohol nozzles I would assume. Of course Bob Jones aint talking! :lol:

by **Eddie** » 22 Apr 2009 9:35

The Custom Grind Scotty Brown 'Juice stick" arrived in a brown truck today. I'll get pics at school today. :thumbsup:

I also snuck out in the woods and found 3 pounds of mushrooms. they come up for a few days and poof gone till next spring. They sell for about $25-45 a pound, locally. I dont eat them, nasty fungi! :lol:

The smaller ones are called "Peckerheads" the larger darker ones are black/grey Morels.

by **Eddie** » 22 Apr 2009 9:46

Tree Mushrooms.

by **fal308** » 22 Apr 2009 16:07

That tree mushroom is huge! What's the diamter on that?
Haven't been 'shroom hunting in years. Didn't realize they were bringing that much. (don't care for them myself)

by **Eddie** » 22 Apr 2009 19:43

fal308 wrote::s014: That tree mushroom is huge! What's the diamter on that?
Haven't been 'shroom hunting in years. Didn't realize they were bringing that much. (don't care for them myself)

That particular one weighed roughly 5 pounds and was the size of a small pizza roughly 16 inches in diameter. The Tree Mushrooms get much larger than that, 15 20 25 pounds are common around these here parts. Here is my Scott Brown Custom grind juice camshaft. "Man, like those lobes are so huge they have a small manned expedition to the summit'. :lol:

by **Eddie** » 22 Apr 2009 19:48

Another, the specs are "Top Secret" :lol:

Actually they are .365 lobe X 1.6 Ratio=.584 Lift 304 Intake Duration,(252@.050) installed on a 108 centerline,(Intake) and the Lobe seperation Angle is 112 this should make some noise.(With the engine size&LSA it should barely thump at idle) :s023:

by **ianandjess** » 23 Apr 2009 13:35

that is an impresive looking cam eddie :thumbsup:

by **Eddie** » 23 Apr 2009 15:58

ianandjess wrote:that is an impresive looking cam eddie

Thanks Ian, it cost $359.00 delivered thats the cam only. The hyd. roller lifters will be around 600.00,,,Yeah, it's got some 'fat' lobes, much larger radius at the top than the old flat tappet designs. This means way more area under the curve. In my 'quest' for a 7000RPM hydraulic valvetrain combo. :lol:

I forgot to mention the spring requirement is 175 lb. on the seat and 420 lb.open the Comp Cams Beehive Part#26095 is 180/430 this should work perfect and reduce valvetrain weight by over 50% and offer more control than a Comp Part# 929 dual spring. I will use Comp Lightweight Steel Retainers which are 2 grams lighter than comparable Titanium retainers. All this should help reduce valvetrain weight because the hydraulic roller lifters are a bit heavy. This reduction will help the roller lifter from pumping up and reducing power at higher RPM's.

by **Eddie** » 25 Apr 2009 14:24

Yesterday I met the 'Genius' that is Formula-1! Name any pro-Engine builder you've ever thought of and they pale in comparison to this man's accomplishments. He even showed us why the Asian Teams arent winning in F-1. http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/ne ... p?ID=35036 Most of the Engineers were from the UK, Sergio Rinland,, Keith Martin ect,, very impressive array of Genius and Talent!! They even inspired me me to return to the University to pursue a few technology classes I am going to enroll in,(Race Engineering). I havent been to the University in 25 years. :lol:

They're all kids. I need to brush up on my Math Skills. :lol:

by **Eddie** » 26 Jun 2009 16:26

Quick update, the heads are done. After the VP trip, the AED 950 CFM 4150 style E-85 carb and Scott Brown valvetrain hardware, MP 383 Dizzy, and I'm gonna fire this thing up. Later it will be FI converted when the SF Engine Dyno gets put in.

by **Moparman1972** » 26 Jun 2009 18:02

How'd they turn out, Eddie?