The Dodge Challenger Message Board

fbernard wrote:

airfuelEddie wrote:forced induction

Funny, but that always seems to be THE reason why people will make the switch to an EFI system....

Even if there are many more people now who have megasquirted their Mopar, it's still pretty rare, so you'll have to get real familiar with the system. You need to know the theory of engine operation (closed loop vs open loop). And it probably still takes a long time to get the injection maps right for all situations.
A WBO2 is mandatory, and I'd guess an exhaust pyrometer would help a great deal also.
The user interface and tuning software has really matured though.
And the price is much better than any other aftermarket (BigStuff 3, Accel DFI, there's also Aeromotive but I've heard so many horror stories about their service).

Fabian , Thanks! Yes right now I am studying G.M. C3 , Ford EEC, Chrysler OBDII MPI. This gives me the necessary knowledge about the varous sensors and actuator voltages at various ranges, idle to WOT. Then the Closed loop inputs which are based totally on the wide band oxy sensor voltage inputs after various conditions have been met in open loop. Open Loop is the bases of the sensor inputs in order to maintain drivability during warm up, when those conditions are met the PCU goes into closed loop unless it's a Ford product. Then the ford uses both,(their version of A.I.), in reality it a trouble prone system. I think I am going to get the MS-II next month and start amassing my sensors peicemeal,(probably off of E-bay), some times they can be bought very inexpensive on there. BTW, Fabian do you know what the Baud rate of the MS-II is? The other injection companies want an outrageous amount of money. I heard the edelbrock,(Webber Maranelli?) is having some tuning problems, yeah the fuel maps can give you a fit, and the WB02,(during closed loop of course), is a godsend! Thanks for any input Fabian, I need all the advice I can get right now. Dave Hughes is starting to act "weird" with my order....(I think he wants to suck me in to getting a complete engine built from him, all I wanted was the block and stroker kit)!

You guy's are Incredible! I wish I had half your knowlege. Or at least had you guy's for nieghbor's.

yea im with you patrick i just wish i had a clue what theyre talking about i think carby's are easier for a backyarder like me
cheers ian

Naw, carbs suck man! Seriously, the computer is nothing but a high-tech switch. ON/OFF in Binary information of course, 1000100011000 means a mathmatical "formula" it translates to something like 134,(Fabian could probably figure it in his head), if certain parameters are met it switches on or off thats it. Most of the time the computer is shut off waiting for it's next command,(it's 'off 95% of the time)!! from it's eyes and ears the engines sensors. Thats it! The terminology is a little different but... the smart guys are the ones that program the algorithims/software engineers, they are are on a different level than most of us. Most of this stuff is plug and play. Where you can destroy the components is with simple static electricity, it cooks ECUs, as does back probing the ECU as well.

Dave sent me an e-mail showing me the crank kit. It contains everything I said NOT to contain! ring supports, external oiling, 11.8 to 1 comp.! I said the opposite of this,(internal oiling, NO ring supports, street compression no higher than 10.2 to 1, ironically the same as the mighty 440 six pack engine) and I sent him back an e-mail stating this. He is a weird kinda dude, needs a good physic or to get laid.

ianandjess wrote:yea im with you patrick i just wish i had a clue what theyre talking about i think carby's are easier for a backyarder like me
cheers ian

The theory is pretty simple. The ECU uses information from a few sensors :
- engine temperature [see it as the automatic choke - richer when cold, richer when too hot, on the lean side at the right temp range],
- exhaust gases O2 content [closed-loop richness control].
- manifold absolute pressure [a great way to determine engine load].
- throttle position sensor [used along with the MAP, and also used to determine WOT]. The TPS also tells the ECU when the timing can be safely advanced (part throttle cruising and decelerating), or when everything should go back to the fixed maps (WOT or 'open-loop mode').

That's for the theory.

Well Dave and I discussed the engine shortblock detail by detail. I got it and will pick it up at the Indy Trade Show March1 2008. 500 Cubes, Low Deck block fully machined and modded for oiling increases to the mains and solid lifters with oil through to the camlobe,(No wiped cams here). Internal oil pickup, 4340 Crank, nitrided, micropolished, full radius journals, chamfered bearings, cam bearings installed, lifter bores broached and honed, 4.375 bore with deck plates smooth RA for moly rings, decked, mains honed, with studs and girdle. 2618 forged Keith Black pistons with NO ring supports. 11.8 to 1 Comp. perfect for E-85!(105) Octane, (I am totally committed now) or ready to be committed

Sound's like you got it straightened out with Mr. D.H. Glad to hear it Eddie.

Thanks Pat. It's gonna be beast of an engine! Now what type of heads? Edelbrock big port, small port, 440 source, B-1 Bombers, Brodix Moved centerlines, cast iron war pigs, ect ect...

JDB840: Found it! Too bad my wife went out and bought a new junk Dell computer with the horrible Windows Vista 2008. It's very difficult to utilize. Windows reportedly has a fix but in the meantime, I would need someone like Fabian to assist me in scanning with this thing! How pathetic is that? I wish I had my old Windows 98 The issue containing the multi-point injected 440 sixpack with 3 three, billet throttle bodies AND uses the stock Chrysler air cleaner,(Six Pack), is in issue JAN 2005, maybe you can order one from them,(MoPar Collectors Guide magazine), or I could mail you mine. Either way let me know JDB and I'll try to help you out man. I finally got it to upload, but it wouldnt 'take' the file or let me know why! Windows Vista was released to the Gen. Public before it's time. It still had problems with the software but profit was a priority....glad the Automotive world doesnt do such injustices

Eddie, aren't those the same throttle bodies we were talking about in a thread a little while back? I put a link to whatever company was selling tb sixpack setups. I'd put up the link myself but my old 'puter puked its hard drive and I too am trying to learn Vista on my new machine. I love the speed though

fal308 wrote:Eddie, aren't those the same throttle bodies we were talking about in a thread a little while back? I put a link to whatever company was selling tb sixpack setups. I'd put up the link myself but my old 'puter puked its hard drive and I too am trying to learn Vista on my new machine. I love the speed though

Barc or whomever may be intersted in this but I wouldnt want a Throttle Body Injection for Performance applications. Couple of reasons why: First the type of injectors used in TBI apps is different from the injectors used in multi-point apps. The TBI injectors pulse alternately one side to the next, they have to because the intake manifold is a dual plane so one side of the engine would only get fuel if one injector was pulsed to ground by the PCM. They dont both pulse together for efficiency reasons and the injector would be turned on to long and overheat if they where pulsed together at the same time. Remember most TBI feed the whole engine so they must be used more often than a traditional multi-point type injector. The other reason is safety, a TBI injector flows it fuel above the throttle blades. What if the engine backfired, and we old timers who used carburetors where taught to open the throttle all the way in case of a backfire so any flames would be sucked back into the engine putting any fire out. If you do that with certain types of OEM TBI injectors it will send the PCM into Clear Flood mode. The injectors WILL spray fuel onto the backfire causing a huge fire,(No Joke), and possibly setting the fuel and the whole vehicle into a fireball. You have to be very careful about this. I dont know if www.promaxcarbs.com who sells the mega squirt TBI injector assembly uses these types of injectors in it's F.I. setups although they appear to be multi-point peak& hold type injectors clustered together to feed fuel and air into the intake just like a TBI or carburetor.

Sorry Barc I forgot to answer your initial question. NO I dont think these are the ones we discussed a while back. These where custom made . Sure looks Sweet. It also appears to have a progressive linkage setup to the TB's In other words the butterflies open at the same time in the same linear fashion. I finally figured out the Vista has to have it's files sent to the folder you pick but I had to do it on my scanner itself which is also a Dell.My old Windows 98 did that all on the screen with just a few commands? What gives? Yes it's faster but better?

Thanks eddie,

I will try and see if I can order the back issue. If I can't I would greatly appreciate the article.

your right fbernard about the setup, the hard part is programming those sensors into the ecu to control the pulse width to each injector at the same time as the engine is firing.

JDB840 wrote:Thanks eddie,

I will try and see if I can order the back issue. If I can't I would greatly appreciate the article.

your right fbernard about the setup, the hard part is programming those sensors into the ecu to control the pulse width to each injector at the same time as the engine is firing.

Once again I have to give credit to the software engineers who write the algorithims,(fuel cells), to which the computer can access with it's memory,(KAM),(RAM). The mechanical event that makes this happen is either the magnetic pickup in the distributor for this sole purpose not ignition, or a crankshaft position sensor which can be either Hall effect or Light emitting diode,(L.E.D.). This generates a signal that the computer can "see" where TDC#1 cylinder is. The computer has an internal clock, it grounds the injector to which it's programmed to fuel or fire if it's Coil on Plug ignition,(COP). For these reasons a distributor is not necessary anymore. BTW, JD that article on the sixpack contains NO tech info.

Can anyone inform me if 11.8 comp ratio with 86 cc heads will work with 84 cc alloy heads on the street? I asked Dave H. about this and you would have think I started World War 17!! He states that this will be 9.7 Comp. ratio as stated on his website when used with 86 cc cast iron heads! I have never heard of this before. I have built a few engines over the years and am no expert, what am I missing? I would think the ratio would be some thing like 12.0 to 1 with 84cc alloy,(aluminum).

I don't quite follow this. Actually I am totally lost.

Is he saying that with the same cc pistons head gasket, 86cc heads and deck height that you should have 9.7:1 ratio? But you are saying that you will actually have 11.8:1 ratio??

i agree with u eddie
smaller cc more comp

airfuelEddie wrote:I would think the ratio would be some thing like 12.0 to 1 with 84cc alloy,(aluminum).

Only if your compression ratio was 11.8:1 to start with. Maybe Dave Hughes is confused about what combo you have? I know he gets stressed out a lot.

About 10.0 is max for a boosted engine with 7.5 - 8.5 preferred from my research.

I recieved

I figured out how to post pics on this Windows Vista software. First any scan musy not be BIT MAP or BMP files. I simply right clicked to file in my pics which is JPG or J Peg. Cool Huh!

No one has any input? Dave?

I don't have a clue what the hell is going on mate. I think Dave Hughes is his own worst enemy. I wonder if he is going a bit mad?

Thanks Dave. I really only want my block and parts at this point. Did you see the engine buildsheet? Am I correct/wrong about that 11.6 ratio? Thanks for the help Dave.

Speak to Kevin (named as the salesperson) next time. I don't think Dave knows one customer from another. I spoke to him once and he was there all alone cleaning the place. He told me he had done my job and shipped it a week ago. Which was odd because I had only made the order a few days before.
But I spoke to one of his sons the next day and he said forget that because the job had not even been done yet let alone shipped.

I think Dave is away with the fairies a little.

Thanks Dave.

www.fbthrottlebodies.com dig the six-pack set-up!

Finally some light at the end of the tunnel. Picking all my parts up Tue. March 18. Pics to follow.