The Dodge Challenger Message Board

airfuelEddie wrote:

Jimiboy wrote:Sorry i haven't keeped up! Where have you planned to put this little monster when you are done? Is it in your pick-up or in the Chally?

I am going to sell it Jimi. Interested?

I think the shipping cost will make that a quite expencive deal Is it a just for fun project then?

Jimiboy wrote:

airfuelEddie wrote:

Jimiboy wrote:Sorry i haven't keeped up! Where have you planned to put this little monster when you are done? Is it in your pick-up or in the Chally?

I am going to sell it Jimi. Interested?

I think the shipping cost will make that a quite expencive deal Is it a just for fun project then?

Yes and No. If I can re-coup my cost plus 10% then I'll sell it. I started this project with a budget engine in mind, heres what I'm thinking about the induction. You can 'build' your own M.P.I. system for about 850.00-1500.00 depending on your intake used and throttle body plus sensors, http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/ or I might "wuss" out and get a big single plane and Holley Pro series 950 4150 style carb. A blown motor with Programmable M.P.I. would be easier to street tame and get decent fuel economy compared to a Huge Carb with enormous jets and throttle body to feed the motor, lean is mean with a blower. Of course Jimi, I cant spend any money on my freshly machined block until I get back from Santa Pood or else Dave and Wayne will beat me with an MSD coil wire repeatedly!

Could you use that (website) processor to run a TBI fuel injection. I've been looking into running 3x2bbl 400cfm TBI's. I would like to b able to buy a controller versus programming my own chip.

JDB840 wrote:Could you use that (website) processor to run a TBI fuel injection. I've been looking into running 3x2bbl 400cfm TBI's. I would like to b able to buy a controller versus programming my own chip.

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/ explains the necessary size of the injector you would need for the size of the engine you are building. Are you going to use the throttle bodies for air only and have the 8 injectors for each cylinder or have a 6-pak T.B.I. system? Keep in mind that with all your hard work with a T.B.I. you'll still have fuel distribution problems possibly. M.P.I. does away with fuel dist. problems cause the T.B. is only flowing air.It does sound cool having a 'electronic' six pack! But to answer your question, Yes

Thanks for the info Eddie.
I might start a new thread about this so I'm not hijacking yours.
I friend of mine did the same engine combo as your 400 to a 512 with indy SR heads. The last track date of last year he ran a 9.90 in his 71 Challenger.

This is going to be a project of mine, hopefully it won't turn out to be a waste of time or money.

Could you ellaborate a little more on TBI air and fuel distribution? I would like to have the 6pak running the whole time, so I'm not sure if fuel dist would be a problem. I really wasn't considering a EFI, but that doesn't mean I won't move in that direction.

I would love to put injection with three 2 bbl throttle bodies on my chally but injections systems and their electronics are greek to me.

Plus I would want a procharger feeding them with a custom top hat.

JDB840 wrote:Thanks for the info Eddie.
I might start a new thread about this so I'm not hijacking yours.
I friend of mine did the same engine combo as your 400 to a 512 with indy SR heads. The last track date of last year he ran a 9.90 in his 71 Challenger.

This is going to be a project of mine, hopefully it won't turn out to be a waste of time or money.

Could you ellaborate a little more on TBI air and fuel distribution? I would like to have the 6pak running the whole time, so I'm not sure if fuel dist would be a problem. I really wasn't considering a EFI, but that doesn't mean I won't move in that direction.

Hijack away my friend I'm just glad someone is discussing this with me. I'm not an expert but I am ASE cert. in F.I. repair and diagnostics. I was cert. in the early 90's but am going back to school to get updated on the new hybrid and 42 volt systems that all new cars/trucks will eventually go to. (They choose 42 volts because it 'usually takes 50 to kill someone, 42 was a good compromise between performance and lethality), a T.B. system is merely a electronic carburetor. All mechanical/electronic carbs will have some fuel distribution problems, much like electrical current, the air fuel mass will have droplets of fuel not completely atomised, some will drop out of suspension,(puddling on the intake floor), some will enter the intake port. With an injector, the fuel is sprayed directly at the back of a hot intake valve, and it becomes atomised and awaits in a perfect misted spray waiting for the valve to open,(thats why injected vehicles drive away clean on a cold day and carbs sputter and stall waiting for the intake heat to aid in combustion), so you can see why a sixpack of throttle bodies would be a lot of work for little gain. You would also have very little base info on tuning so a chassis dyno and a lot of man hours perfecting the drivaebility will be necessary, remember you will have to plot idle, load, vacum, temp. range, WOT,(Wide Open Throttle), Mass airflow or Speed density, Seqential, or Bank ect...it has been done but at the expense of much labor and testing. Another problem will be the throttle bodies themselves, 400 cfm is very small, G.M. might have made them as the 2 injector G.M. and Chrysler T.B. appear to have been made by the same suppliers in the 80's and early 90's (Holley was one supplier). With the injectors at the intake port,(port fuel injection), a large plenum single plane intake can be used very effectively. A port fuel injection with sixpack air only throttle bodies and 8 injectors sequentially driven is intriguing but would require a custom made intake and throttle bodies.

Instead of a sixpack, why not an eightpack? One set of throttle bodies for each set of cylinders. That way you could optyimize/maximize fuel flow. No worries about leanout to the outermost cylinders etc. The tuning wouldn't be much harder as it's all done on a laptop. Imagine, an O2 sensor mounted on the bottom side of each header tube to get readings from each cylinder individually, allowing ideal tuning for each cylinder. I'm sure that would be good for quite a few ponies.
Build a sheet metal intake and plumb the injectors to the port. You'd basically be making a setup like the electronic conversions of the old Hillborn mechanical systems. As I recall, those Hillborn conversions aren't inexpensive
Also since you could store the exact calibrations used, you could input your economy data for roadtrips and input the Friday night program when you're feeling froggy

Because I just glued "440 Six Pack" badges on my hood and the paint will probably come off with them.

Eddie,

Thanks for your right up on this. When I took my HVAC class on oil burners this is pretty much the same philosphy, and you pretty much hit it right on par with what i'm studying.

I haven't decided what I want to go with the MPI would definality be the way to go, in terms of best A/F ratio and performance. I don't think I have the means or the know how to make that system work. I'm every good with electronics and programming the other stuff is what I don't know about machining and so forth. I wish I would of thought about this during college (Electronics Engineering) and I could've had all of the programming experts help me out.

This will be a long process and hopefully it will turn out successfully. If anyone has any info on TBI's and their ECM controls I would love to here about it.

Thanks for the reply JDB840. Here is what little I know about the ECM and throttle body injection. First, Chrysler T.B.I. uses a pre-programmed fuel and spark map and they call this Speed Density Fuel injection. The Open loop mode gets it's inputs from the Temp. Control Sensor,(Located in the intake manifold water cavity, near the by pass hose), Throttle position sensor,(Located on the throttle body), Camshaft Position sensor,(Located as the distributor Hall Effect Module), M.A.P.(Manifold Absolute Pressure) located in the Intake Manifold. When the Oxygen sensor and computer clock pass 3 minutes max. it switches to closed loop and the Air fuel ratio is determined via pre-programmed map and interacts with the O2 Sensor to 'fine tune' itself. In other words it is very difficult to obtain extra fueling parameters to achieve a decent air fuel ratio if modifications are performed. A T.B.I. is a good injection for passenger car usage but NOT for performance due to the inability to provide the necessary adjustability for performance apps. The software would need to be changed which isnt practical or economical. A G.M. based Mass Airflow with Port Fuel Multi-Point sequential is the way to go!! The aftermarket supports it tremendously with many performance based components and the testing has already been performed. The mega squirt is not too difficult but a knowledge of basic F.I. is necessary, I think you could do it. I apologize for the length of this post.

My block has been completed by Dave Hughes. I'll pick it up at the Indy Trade Show. Hope Barc comes along to help, Bob can help as well. (I'll post pics when I get the block and Stroker Kit from Dave, I'll detail the machining I had done to my specs, and the mods I will do to it)

A MoPar guy with a 604 Hemi took 3rd place at the dynomax RWHP shootout. He made 1435 H.P. with his Hemi at the rear wheels. He used E-85,(15%regular unleaded gasoline combined with 85% Methanol), Octane is typically around 105 Octane ROM and can easily support 11.5+ comp. Ratio on the street, it burns clean and cool and makes more power than race fuel and is cheaper than any other fuel on the market,(USA), what more could one want.!

airfuelEddie wrote:He used E-85, (15% regular unleaded gasoline combined with 85% Methanol)

E85 = 85% ethanol, not methanol.

jr wrote:

airfuelEddie wrote:He used E-85, (15% regular unleaded gasoline combined with 85% Methanol)

E85 = 85% ethanol, not methanol.

Yeah, ethanol jr. tahnks slip of the tongue, gues I shouldnt be drinkin the stuff heh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=974YsInWxhQ dig the homemade intake with the throttle bodies, it's still a multi-point, the throttle bodies just flow air.

airfuelEddie wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=974YsInWxhQ dig the homemade intake with the throttle bodies, it's still a multi-point, the throttle bodies just flow air.

That was sweet Eddie! Some of this stuff is making me get bored with my small block. Not really.

Dont worry Pat. We can squirt that 340 to do the same!!!

Got an e-mail from Bob@the supercharger store. 6400.00 for a PS-1 with complete blow thru carb fuel system. I wont use the carb so it will probably be a little cheaper but not much. Looks like I gotta start selling more guns, tools, parts and saving bigtime!

airfuelEddie wrote:Dont worry Pat. We can squirt that 340 to do the same!!!

That's great "Fuel" for thought, Eddie.

Bob,(JH27NOB), are you going to be at the INDY show for sure? Are you coming with me Barc? Any other members going to be at the INDY trade show Sat March 1 2008 or March 2 Sun? I need to know cause I am picking my 400 block from Dave Hughes and need a hand,(clap clap), with the block. I need to get it in my truck then we can go out for dinner, my treat! The reason I need to know is I am not taking my wife or anyone else here, all are busy or at work. Need some help, Thanks guys, Eddie BTW, if anyone needs prices, measurements, descriptions, info, ect.. let me know before hand.

Fabian would love this one: Micrprocessor for the F.I. unit is a Motorola MC9S12C64 16 bit 24 MHZ 64 Kbytes of flash, 2k bytes of RAM, Temp range of -40C-125C, fuel control to 1Usec. I think the bank to bank will be more efficient than sequential with a boosted engine. It will also allow for greater fuel atomization with a warm intake valve being the first thing the fuel spray will encounter, it will also be cooler for the injectors and will allow the injectors a shorter duty cycle. I will need injectors that flow approx 86 GPH, pretty large due to the air fuel ratio of alcohol which is 3x richer than gasoline so the larger injectors are needed for the Ethanol,(E-85). This engine is gonna make some Challenger owner very happy!

airfuelEddie wrote:Fabian would love this one: Micrprocessor for the F.I. unit is a Motorola MC9S12C64 16 bit 24 MHZ 64 Kbytes of flash, 2k bytes of RAM, Temp range of -40C-125C, fuel control to 1Usec.

I've been looking at MS and its derivatives for years (before Bowling & Grippo had any distributors). It's been getting better and better everyday.
It's still on my wish list, along with the F-2... but since I'm so slow, I never got around to installing one. I'll probably do it next year for the race Chally though, since I'll probably have no more success tuning the carb this year (whatever I do, it's always too rich).

Do you have some pics of your controller? Where are you going to install it? (underhood or inside the car).

Fabian I'm especially happy to hear you are into the MS systems from Bowling&Grippo. Now I know who to 'bug' for help. HELP!! Seriously, I havent ordered the controller yet. I am interested in the MS-2 30 C.($430.00) It has so many features over the MS-1, it's 100 times 'faster' (1usec), has many more fuel control parameters, the ability to use Alpha-n and Speed density together, many others I assumed you have read about like I have, with forced induction, I think it will be important to control the spark and fuel settings when you want them and how you want them. With a fuel composition sensor as used on Flex Fuel Vehicles I can use E-85 which is 105 Octane. I would think that placing the PCM inside the passenger compartment is wise. The heat in the engine compartment may affect the resistance, although the PCM itself could easily take it? Thanks for any input! www.diyautotune.com

JDB840 wrote:Eddie,

Thanks for your right up on this. When I took my HVAC class on oil burners this is pretty much the same philosphy, and you pretty much hit it right on par with what i'm studying.

I haven't decided what I want to go with the MPI would definality be the way to go, in terms of best A/F ratio and performance. I don't think I have the means or the know how to make that system work. I'm every good with electronics and programming the other stuff is what I don't know about machining and so forth. I wish I would of thought about this during college (Electronics Engineering) and I could've had all of the programming experts help me out.

This will be a long process and hopefully it will turn out successfully. If anyone has any info on TBI's and their ECM controls I would love to here about it.

JD,in 1984 G.M. tried to utilize a Throttle Body Injection with a cross over intake manifold. It used two sets of four point throttle bodies, pressure regulated EGR valve, wet intake manifold so evaporation has to be calculated, the algorithims/fuel map/cold starting flooding was common, would drive the PCM 'mad' it didnt work and the crossfire fuel injection was abandoned. The 1984 Corvette has a somewhat bad rep due to this injection setup,(1 yr. only). Of course that was 24 years ago and micro-processor/sensor tech has gone up dramatically. But if a billion dollar company couldnt make it work....

Unless something untowards happens between now and then I'll be there.

fal308 wrote:Unless something untowards happens between now and then I'll be there.

Cool ,thanks Barc, keep me posted, lot happening with me and school/work right now.

airfuelEddie wrote:forced induction

Funny, but that always seems to be THE reason why people will make the switch to an EFI system....

Even if there are many more people now who have megasquirted their Mopar, it's still pretty rare, so you'll have to get real familiar with the system. You need to know the theory of engine operation (closed loop vs open loop). And it probably still takes a long time to get the injection maps right for all situations.
A WBO2 is mandatory, and I'd guess an exhaust pyrometer would help a great deal also.
The user interface and tuning software has really matured though.
And the price is much better than any other aftermarket (BigStuff 3, Accel DFI, there's also Aeromotive but I've heard so many horror stories about their service).