[R/T Rick]

Yesterday I decided to go for a quick cruise down the road, when i first started the engine it had lifter/valve noise for a few seconds which never happened before. The noise cleared up, I thought nothing of it and went on my way. I drove a few miles and heard the loud clatter again looked at my gauge and it was reading no oil pressure. I quickly shut her down and called a tow truck. I only hope there is no major damage and it will not have any bearing noise when the problem is corrected. Now for the mystery... I pulled the distributor and the oil pump drive shaft and both are perfect so I decided to take off the external (440) oil pump. When I removed the filter not a drop of oil was present. I proceeded to remove the pump assembly and again no oil present. I bench tested the pump in some oil and seemed fine. And yes the oil was right on mark on the dipstick. What the heck is going on? The engine is super clean inside so I wouldn't think of sludge. Did the pick up tube break off or something? Please help! I ordered a new Meling High volume oil pump while it is apart. I guess I will have to pull the pan and see what is going on. Thanks for any help! Rick

[dave-r]

What oil are you using? Is it too thin and was it a hot day?

[Eddie]

R/T Rick, yes drop the pan and inspect the pickup tube. If you dont find anything wrong there, install the pump and intermediate shaft, pull the valve covers off, both sides, prime the oil system by installing a hexagonal shaft into the the top of the intermediate shaft and spin it with a drill, rotate the engine slowly, there had better be plenty of oil to the top end via the rocker shaft feed holes from the block head junction. If not you may have spun a cam bearing which is unlikely but happens from time to time. The number 4 cam journal feeds the heads to both sides via a timed supply,(the oil holes line up momentarily thats why you have to rotate the engine slowly).Spin the pump clockwise and turn the engine the same. Let us know, Good Luck, Eddie BTW, with the rocker shafts removed,(Sorry you have to hear this), a piece of thin welding rod can be inserted and probed to "see" if there is a restriction in the number 4 cam bearing journal.

[R/T Rick]

The oil was normal viscosity and the outside air temp was around 80 degrees. What has me puzzled is why is there no oil in the filter when I remove it? I mean not a drop! Makes me think the pump was working and sucked it dry. And also the car momentarily "clacked" when first started that day (which never happens). I guess it could be the pick up or some restriction in there. I just hate to have to pull the pan (big messy job) Thanks for the replys!

[Eddie]

Rick, did you use an anti-drainback oil filter? Sometimes the valve sticks on them. You might want to try a new filter first. Fill it the best you can then spin it on. Start it up and check the pressure gauge. I would attach a mechanical gauge or take a chance with the electronic. If you hear anything strange. Shut it down and start tearing into it. Just a thought.

[R/T Rick]

Fram filter (I don't know if they are anti drain back or not) I am really afraid to start it because she ran so dry. Are these engines strong? Of course I would try to prime it first no matter what route i take.

[dave-r]

I just thought I would mention the oil because these engines were built for a straight 40w oil and many years ago i went and used a 10w-30w multigrade instead. On a hot day in the hills i got a tappet noise. I stopped and it went away. Then further on it started again and I saw that the oil pressure gauge was dropping to zero.

I stopped and checked everything i could. After a half hour (and being far from anywhere in the hills and before mobile phones were common) I chanced firing her up again and she was sweet as a nut with oil pressure again!

It was the oil. The hotter an oil gets the thinner it gets. The thinner it gets the harder it is to maintain any pressure.

Now I always try to use a 20w-40w AT LEAST. 20w-50w if I can.

But if your oil seemed OK then you probably either lost a lifter (but the engine would have been rough) or the pick-up is blocked somehow.

[dave-r]

What has me puzzled is why is there no oil in the filter when I remove it? I mean not a drop!

Ah! I just read that one. That does not sound good. Faulty filter or faulty pump. Or still the pick-up tube. i cant remember if they oil goes to the pump first ir the filter. The pump I think. So if there is nothing in the filter the pump was running dry. Must be the pick-up blocked.

[Eddie]

Rick, dont use a Fram. Get a Wix or Napa Gold, K&N, or Baldwin anything but Fram unless it's a H.P. Fram. I forget if the Fram reg. filter has an anti-drainback valve in it but almost all filters do. Yes, these engines are strong but any engine that runs "dry" will cause damage. If it were me,(I know this sounds bad but in reality it isnt just yet, first replace that filter with a quality filter like the ones mentioned above, then pull the dizzy and prime it. It should "catch" right away and feel like it's got a "drag" on it. If it spins too easy, then somethings wrong). A filter with a stuck closed bypass valve will simply circulate the oil but not through the filter. It wont get cleaned but then again it shouldnt run "dry" and make the engine "clatter". This portion of your problem worries me.

[Eddie]

Good tip Dave. A new pump is easily replaced and might solve the problem. Max pump clearances are .014 between the rotors if I recall right, another thing I just thought of was the relief spring in the pump, another unlikely area but hey, it happens!

[R/T Rick]

A guy I work with told me to drain the oil and put 2 gallons of kerosene in the engine and let it sit so the oil pick up screen is submerged in the kerosene then rock the vehicle as to slosh it around then drain. Will this prove effective? Or should I just bite the bullit and pull the pan?

[itsfred]

releif valve in oil pump seized or spring broken?
seen it before easy fix
fred

[R/T Rick]

Took apart oil pump, spring and plunger operate smoothly, no broken parts. As I said earlier, I ordered a New Meling High Volume oil pump and It will be in tomorrow. My plan right now (unless someone can tell me any different) is to install the new pump, change oil and filter, switch the ignition on (so someone can see the gauge) prime the pump with a drill. If I get pressure reading I will then reinstall the Dizzy and attempt to start. If I get no pressure reading while spinning the pump I will have to pull the pan. This is the most logical sequence I can come up with right now.

[Eddie]

Forget the kerosene, youre engine is too clean. Try what you just posted last and let us know, Eddie

[R/T Rick]

Well, I just couldn't wait til tomorrow and my gut was telling me I should pull the pan, so I did and found no blockage but what I did find was my pick up assembly broke off at the threads and hanging by a pubic hair Not what I expected at all, so Now I need to extract the broken off piece out of the block and purchase a new pick up assembly Should I remove the rod caps and check bearings while i'm in there or just tap them with a rubber mallet and check for play /movement? No metal shavings whatsoever I was surprise to find windage tray/ baffle in my pan with two gaskets. Are all 440's like this or only Six Paks? Thanks for everyones help! I will let you know how it turns out, Keep our fingers crossed!

[dave-r]

How the hell did that snap off?

Many of the 1970-71 HP440 4bbl engines had six pack crank/rods and windage tray.

[fbernard]

If I get pressure reading I will then reinstall the Dizzy and attempt to start.

Don't bother switching the contact on. It will take ages to get a pressure reading with the OEM gauge (it is slower than waiting in line at the French Post Office), you will get a reading however if you have an aftermarket gauge.

Just prime and turn the crank a little bit at a time until you see oil coming out of the rocker shafts, and start her up.
You will feel it in the drill if the pump starts to pick up oil. It will almost stall.
If you plan on using a cordless drill (bad idea altogether), make sure you recharge every battery you have for it beforehand.

Oiling the pump components before you install it should help it suck in oil faster. A dry pump can cavitate and suck only air for some time, even with the pickup submerged in oil.

If you don't see oil coming up or pressure building, try without the oil filter (just a small tap on the drill button). Have a rag ready.
That's how I traced the oil up to a missing galley plug on my engine when I couldn't get pressure at the rockers...
A friend of mine also used to check pressure by removing the oil pressure sender. Effective, but messy for the ceiling though.

When it all works again, if you only have the OEM gauge, think about installing a real oil pressure gauge. The OEM gauge takes ages to respond.

I tested all gauges in the cluster when I rebuilt mine some years ago, and the temperature, fuel level, and oil pressure are actuated by the heat generated by the current that goes through them. The simplest type of gauge to manufacture, and the absolute slowest kind known to man. The response time for medium to big variations is in the 30-second range, and small variations are dampened out altogether. That's good for the fuel level, and even for the water temperature (those can not vary wildly in a short time). It's plain ugly for oil pressure. Any aftermarket gauge is better than this.

If you don't want to install an aftermarket gauge in an otherwise stock interior, at least get a warning light tucked away somewhere with a 15-20 psi pressure switch. With a bright LED lamp, this can be made really small and non-intrusive. You can even get just the switch and trigger a buzzer with it.
ANYTHING is better than the OEM gauge.

A brand new Melling HV pump will give you at least 65psi cold idle (with 10W40 oil, I get 80 psi at a cold start, drops to 50 when it's extremely hot). Then it just goes to 65-70 in gear at any temperature (always on the relief spring).

[Eddie]

Rick, the windage trays require two gaskets as you have on your engine. A tack weld,or "staking the threads" can help that pickup remain on the block threads, as well as Loctite Thread Locker,(just make sure you have the right loctite that can handle the right heat range). I bet the bearings are ok. Good luck Eddie

[R/T Rick]

Today I have spent rounding up all the new materials for the job includinng two oil pan gaskets, 20-50w oil, new antifreeze, new meling hv oil pump, purolator filter, etc... but had to order the pickup, so the job is on hold til it comes in. This gives me time to clean everything real nice Will let you know. BTW I think she will be ok, I hope

[Eddie]

Today I have spent rounding up all the new materials for the job includinng two oil pan gaskets, 20-50w oil, new antifreeze, new meling hv oil pump, purolator filter, etc... but had to order the pickup, so the job is on hold til it comes in. This gives me time to clean everything real nice Will let you know. BTW I think she will be ok, I hope

I think it will be OK also Rick. At this point you have nothing to lose anyway. Button it all up and let it rip! I bet it purrs like a sewing machine!

[R/T Rick]

Here is a picture before she got sick.

[Eddie]

She's beautiful Rick! Love the colour and I bet it's going to run terrific again! Good heads up being alert and shutting it down before any serious damage. Keep us informed, it's driving me batty thinking if any damage occured.

[R/T Rick]

Sorry been gone so long... I went on vacation then got sick for a week not to mention my pick up tube just came in today. Today is the first day I worked on the car since this ordeal began. I installed the new oil pump and filter tonight as well as new antifreeze. I am having a problem getting the piece of pick up tube out of the block. I am using a very good extractor that fits nice and snug but the problem is I keep breaking the 10mm sockets that fit over it. any suggestions? Thanks Rick p.s. I can't wait to get her running again, this is the best time of the year here in North East Pa!

[dave-r]

Drill it out from the bottom.

[R/T Rick]

Drill It Out? I am afraid of getting metal shavings all over, not to mention what if i screw it up? Should I try heating it first? Any other suggestions?

[Eddie]

Drill It Out? I am afraid of getting metal shavings all over, not to mention what if i screw it up? Should I try heating it first? Any other suggestions?

Rick, is there enough "meat" there to attempt to bend a portion of the tube thats broke off into the opening, forming a jagged edge on which to afix a 'tool' onto, then twisting that off. This way the threads arent 'touched' the offending portion is bent inwards. Heat always helps but be careful, and you must be in an awkward position. Be patient and get a set of sharp center punches,(Machinist's). Another idea would be to form your own extractor, sharpen an old steel shaft with taper towards the end and make it approx. the same diameter of the offending tube portion but with 'cuts' to grab the tube you have bent in, then turn it counter clockwise. Just thinking out loud here. I know the feeling, you want to get out and drive as well! Good Luck man, Eddie

[R/T Rick]

Thanks for the reply, but the tube is broke off even with the block, nothing to grab or bend. Maybe i'll try a bigger extractor or like you said "try making one". Nothing is ever easy, is it? Rick

[Eddie]

Those are the worst Rick, broke off even with the boss on the block. Your E-Z out fits but the adaptor socket 10 mm keeps breaking huh. Bummer, no way to cut grooves or slots in the offending piece? I'm trying to 'visualise' the fitting on the heater hose pipe that fits into the front of the block, this has slots that if you could mimic onto that pipe thats stuck and somehow twist that. Either way is going to take some creative work, never easy is it?

[dave-r]

You are only going to get swarf on the floor by drilling it out from the bottom.

Take the sump off. Get under the engine. Drill it out with a bit sized just under the cast hole size. That way you will not make the original hole larger.
The tube will come out. What does not come out will be like tin foil and come out easily.

Non of this will go into your engine. Just clean the hole and re-assemble.

[R/T Rick]

Thanks, I will be working on her again on Sunday (first day off) and hopefully will figure something out. I will let you all know how I make out.