budget engine ideas ? • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **Adrian Worman** » 30 Jul 2007 21:37

Hello Mopar Mates
Hope your all keeping well. Can you throw some ideas at me please? I've got to rebiuld my 440 but I have a complete spare mptor and both reouire the same amount of work (rebore,pistons,rings+30 and crank grind on both)
My original block is a 72 HP and inside is a forged crank, siixpack rods and 1/2'' oil pick up. The 'spare' is a 74 with a cast crank, the only notable info is a stamp on the pad next to the distributer that states 0.010'' underground crank from factory.
So, do I actually gain anything from keeping the 72 motor or do I sell it to help finance the cost of rebuilding the 74 motor? Any recomendations for suppliers? I think 'budget' is probably in my top ten of favourite words.
Appreciate any advice, your all always very helpfull.
Adrian Worman
P.S. Dave , did the floods affect you at all? Its been terrible down here but at least it looks like decent weather for a little while. Dontcha just love British summers?!

by **dave-r** » 31 Jul 2007 8:00

I live on top of a hill and the drains coped well. They did some work on the drains last year because the corner of the street was always flooding. Seems to have worked well. The last time we had very heavy rain in 2004 the water came up the drive to my doorstep. It was worse this year but only came up to the edge of the drive.

All that rainfall was a bit much for some of the plants I had just planted in the garden though. In particular my young Wollemi Pine (a tree from 200 million years ago recently found in Austrailia) which has dis-coloured a bit and was not looking well. But it seems to be picking itself up.

How much HP are you wanting from the 440 anyway? Or what times do you want to run?
Other wise it is like asking how long is a piece of string.

by **fbernard** » 31 Jul 2007 12:39

If your 72 engine is the matching numbers engine for your car, don't even remotely consider selling it. Either rebuild it or store it safely and rebuild the other one. (I'd do the latter for a stroker, and the former for stock displacement)

I would not bother having machine work done to a stock crank nowadays.

Have a pro (Geoff Hauser, or John Webster, Dave Billadeau, take your pick) give you a quote on the following work for your spare block :
- tank cleaning,
- Bore +30,
- New cam bearings,
- oil pickup gallery enlarged to 1/2 (you can do without, either if you don't plan to race the car, or if you will be using an external oil pickup - but the latter is not 'budget'),
- crank centerline bore/hone

compare this to the price of a fully prepped block (from 440source.com for example.)
http://www.440source.com/blocks.htm
http://www.440source.com/blockinfo.htm

Shipping will probably not be cheap though.

Then, look at the stroker kits (you may keep the stock displacement if you choose to do so) :
http://www.440source.com/strokerkits.htm
which will bring you 500+cubic inches, brand new light rods, all balanced, for about the same price as a set of pistons and machine work on your old crank.

The 440 source rods are much lighter and stronger than 6-pack rods (the rod+piston+pin assembly is 25% lighter than the 6-pack+OEM piston assembly - my engine revs like a small-block).

You did not say what you wanted to do with your car.
Basically, if you just want to rebuild the engine for street and highway use, rebuild the 72 block, stock displacement, stock or near stock camshaft.
If you want to play at Santa Pod, go for a 543 stroker kit. The price is the same, and all you need is a camshaft (may I suggest this one : http://www.straightline-perf.com/dyno-ehead496.html - it's the camshaft I have).

Heads : there again, unless your heads are in exceptional condition, don't even bother to have them machined for unleaded, new guides, etc.
Get new aluminum ones. Edelbrock are relatively cheap and can be mildly (or wildly) ported depending on what you want.
Bigger than that (Indy) will not be budget.

http://www.outrageouslyvintage.com is the place to go for Eddy heads (actually, there are many others, but this is a nice joint).

If you're not in a hurry to get things done, 440 source will have new heads soon (early 2008 I suppose). And a block is in the works too, but don't hold your breath for it.

Settle on the head type you will use before picking the stroker kit, you'll need to know the chamber volume to choose your compression ratio.

Then you'll need a new oil pump, a complete gasket set, a timing chain, etc. Most of that stuff can be found on 440source.

Start by browsing the entire 440source website, and start an Excel spreadsheet with the price of everything. Evaluate your options (mild/mixed/wild). Ask more questions.

I also bought some stuff from Chenoweth Racing, they also have machined blocks, you might want to check them out.

You did not say if you were going to do the work yourself or have it done.

by **dave-r** » 31 Jul 2007 12:52

My advice would be not to ever get anything done by Dave Billadeau. Ask anyone who has had an engine from him. :disbelief:

by **Jon** » 31 Jul 2007 13:30

Very nice synopsis fbernard.

by **Adrian Worman** » 31 Jul 2007 22:53

Thanks for the speedy response. I would like a solid 13 second dead car,but something streetable enough to jump in and drive anywhere.
I'd like to stick with the 4 speed thats in it now but thats not an 18 spline heavy duty, just some old 23 spline unit probabably out of an A body.
Rear end is 3.23 8 3/4" suregrip, car is completely stock body and trim with the exception of almost no sound deadening.Apart from power brakes there are no power options or air.
I like to do as moch stuff as I can, I did actually complete a light vehicle apprenticeship at Bedford College when I left school but that was 20 years ago now.
As regards the heads one pair are 4006452 castings and the others are
3751213. I think the 1st pair are hardened valve seats and the 2nd pair are motorhome. They have both got chambers big enogh to bath in.
Hope this extra info helps.
Cheers for now, Adrian.

by **fbernard** » 01 Aug 2007 9:42

dave-r wrote:My advice would be not to ever get anything done by Dave Billadeau. Ask anyone who has had an engine from him.

Didn't know about that.
His own cars seem to run OK, even if they're not fast enough to beat Duncan yet...

by **dave-r** » 01 Aug 2007 10:51

It has taken him lots of money, some very impressive engines, and many years to finally just get into the 9s.
His handycap being he builds them himself. :roll:

He puts in the time and effort but I don't think he really knows what he is doing. He sure can bolt some expensive parts together though.

When he builds for other people he puts hardly any effort in at all. Hence two people I know well have made expensive mistakes. One mate replaced his "11 second" motor built (twice) by Dave (because it only ran mid 14s) with a stock 440 and mild cam and went faster (13s)

Jim Wilson was suprised his "Hot" 493 in his newly restored 71 RoadRunner was only running 13.7. :roll:

by **dave-r** » 01 Aug 2007 11:26

Well. This is the way I would go.

Use the strongest block with the thickest cylinder walls. 440 source have a good engine id section.

1/2 inch oil pick-up is not completely needed at your level but is prefered even on stock engines.

Use the KB Hyperwhatsit pistons as they are cheaper but work well. Shoot for something around 9.7 on the compression unless you use super unleaded in which case go for 10:1. (these ratios are for iron heads - add 1.0 for ally)

Use the crank that measures out to be the best.

You could use the lighter rods. It helps with HP. Just make sure your rods are straight and have APR bolts fitted.

If you do use the heavy rods keep it externally ballanced as it makes getting the crank ballanced cheaper.

Use the 452 castings. But they may not flow as well as you want. Also you may have to machine down the valve guides with big lift cams. Then you might need to fit new valve guides and bigger valves etc. In which case it would be cheaper to get some Edelbrock heads.

As everyone knows I have been using Hughes cams for years now. I would go for their HEH2832BL which has 228 and 232 druation @ 50thou. Other cam makers have similar cams these days.

If the heads/exhaust flow enough I think it will get you bang on the 13.0 mark if not a bit better, shifting at only 6000rpm. HD or adjustable rocker gear needed though.

by **dave-r** » 01 Aug 2007 11:31

Forgot to say. Always check with SixPack Speed Shop as their prices are not bad. They are setting up a UK outlet in Bristol soon.

by **Adrian Worman** » 01 Aug 2007 21:54

I just finished reading your replys and once again thanks for the time and effort.
Firstly thanks to fbernard for the tips and reminding me about 440source.com I visited that site a couple of years ago and was amazed at the sheer amount of information.
Secondley thanks to Dave, you've given me a great starting point and i'm going for run with that.Do I gain anything by gasket matching the intakes?
My mates got an unused Mopar hyd. perf cam, 0.509 lift and 292 degrees duration that he says will work with stock valvetrain. Its a freebie but I'd like your thoughts on that one.
Thanks again, Adrian.
P.S. Can I put a little photo of my car every time I post a message like some of the other guys?

by **dave-r** » 02 Aug 2007 8:09

OK then.

Use that cam.
Blend the bowls behind the valves so you have a smooth transition from the port to the valve and smooth the end of the valve guide. Smooth the exhaust ports without changing their shape or making them bigger. Don't bother gasket matching. Make sure the valve guides are in good shape.

Use a rear gear and tyre diameter that allows you to cruise at 70mph at 4000rpm. I have a spreadsheet for that in the Transmission section here.

Good electronic ignition system. Maybe the FBO stuff Neil (Wil) sells.

That should get you into the low 13s on open headers. Maybe even 13 dead. :wink:

It is a "lumpy" cam and it will sound like a beast. You mat need to improve the cooling system and you will need to mess with the carb to get it to idle right.

by **dave-r** » 02 Aug 2007 8:14

Forgot to say. Put a SMALL image on the web somewhere. Then put the image address in your signature (your profile settings) using the [img ][/img ] tabs either side of it.

Then you will see the image in your signature.