Amsoil • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **Eddie** » 18 Jun 2007 21:02

Just wondering has anyone used Amsoil in their Challenger engines? Heard any bad info? I have found that mass market oils do not contain the same high pressure additives for flat tappet cams as "specialty oils" for vintage engines.

by **dave-r** » 18 Jun 2007 21:37

http://www.hughesengines.com/general/te ... ID=1000039

by **Eddie** » 18 Jun 2007 22:12

Thanks Dave, I have some of Dave's moly additive and have used it before with good results. Amsoil is supposed to have this additive package already blended into it. Guess I have been reading too many "posts" about flattened cam lobes from modern mass marketed oils, that's got me paranoid! :s008:

by **Eddie** » 18 Jun 2007 22:18

Sorry for the persistance Dave, but if offered Amsoil even for free, would you use it in your 440?

by **Jon** » 19 Jun 2007 1:56

Are you selling snake oil Eddie? :lol:

Any improvement to the standard market oil would be worth a try. Amsoil has been in motocross for years but I have no information as to the long term performance.

Try it your motor and let us know. :s016:

by **dave-r** » 19 Jun 2007 9:19

I have no idea what Amsoil even is mate.

I use Castrol Magnatec 15-40w "for converntional engines".

I drove a half mile with zero oil pressure in the Challenger when I lost two pushrods and lifters. The bearings on inspection were not damaged at all.

by **Eddie** » 19 Jun 2007 13:19

No Jon, just curious with all the "hoopla" about modern oils lacking the Zinc high pressure additive thats necessary for a serious flat tappet cam to live has me concerned. I use Comp Cams 929 Dual springs,(185/330) and their 288/298 custom fast rate of lift split pattern cam, I feel I need the zinc additive without the "miscibility" problems associated with using additives. I broke the engine in on Shell Rotella diesel oil and Wix/Napa filters. Currently I am using the "new" Mobil 1 Extended Perf. Synthetic. The bastards stopped making the red cap Mobil 1 Perf. formula, it was 100% synthetic and contained a bunch of zinc,it has since been discontinued in my area, I cant seem to find it. It was 15W-50. I bought a couple bottles of the Hughes Additive when I was at the INDY trade show. I have never been an advocate of any additives to engine oil at least. I think most of that stuff is garbage and actually harmful to your engine and oiling system. :mrgreen:

I used to also use TORCO SAEengine oil but it also has been discontinued. The lack of zinc was govt. madated to reduce contamination of sensors on pollution control devices. Having a roller cam and lifters negates the use of high pressure additives as it's no longer needed. This leaves us in the "dark"

If I use any different oils I will keep all posted of my catastrophies errr,, results :biggrin:

by **dave-r** » 19 Jun 2007 14:57

Well according to Hughes you Want a diesel oil rating at or above CI-4.

The Castrol oil I use is rated SL and CF. Stated for use in engines made before 1997. It is a semi-synthetic

Castrol will not say what their magic "Intelligent molecules that are attracted to metal" are but every engine I have used it in has sounded much better on start-up and as I said it sure protected my bearings when I had no oil pressure.

I would guess it is some sort of Moly?
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiong ... Id=7030972

They specifically say it "bonds to the surfaces where engine wear occurs giving a continuous layer of protection where it is needed most, including camshaft and followers normally prone to damage".

As I said it does seem to work and was using a Hughes cam for years on it with no wear problems.

by **dave-r** » 19 Jun 2007 15:05

I am worried about what oil to break the engine in with.

Normally I use a cheap supermarket mineral oil with a good filter because I am told the engine will not break in correctly using synthetic oil or additives. After 200-300 miles I swap to the Castrol Oil.

But i just fitted a hughes solid cam and am worried I might damage the lobes if i break it in with cheap oil.

I don't know what to do now.

by **Eddie** » 19 Jun 2007 19:23

Sounds like this paranoia is spreading, sorry bout that Dave. :roll:

I think I will discontinue the Mobil 1 Synthetic and continue using the Shell Rotella I had used to break it in with. Dave I see by the castrol website they make a Diesel version of their "adaptive molecule" oil so maybe that would suffice for your breakin worries. From everything I have read, personal experience, and discussing this with Dave hughes himself at the show, the Diesel rated oil (CF) or any 'C' rated oil for diesel engines will have the additive we need due to the fact that diesels are not under the same EPA rulings as 'S' rated oils which are recommended for gasoline engines. In other words the diesel is safe for flat tappet cams, the gas type oils are lacking the additive unless you know what type of additive they use. I e-mailed Shell and discussed this with one of their Chemical engineers. I wouldnt tell me the formula but did state that the additive I require was in the oil in abundant quantities. So I guess I answered my own question, huh! :s006:

by **dave-r** » 24 Jul 2007 9:29

At last some real sense!!

http://www.penrite.co.uk/nextpage.php?n ... ine%20Oils

by **dave-r** » 24 Jul 2007 9:35

And this is a good idea.

http://www.hughesengines.com/partDetail ... rtID=12856

by **Eddie** » 24 Jul 2007 19:32

Thanks for the Penrite link Dave. The Hughes link doesnt work however. If the Hughes article is on ZTDP additive then I have already read it and have used his additive for some time. 1 bottle with each oil change. I think in your case Dave, I would use a diesel CF rated oil non-synthetic, along with a quality oil filter, then after you're satified with the breakin period 100-300 miles should suffice, you could use your regular Castrol oil. The Amsoil I use has the ZTDP additive in abundant quatities along with other anti-wear additives for valvetrain and flat tappet cams more importantly. It all boils down to one thing, modern engines dont use flat tappets anymore and dont need the higher pressure additives like ZDTP which is also, unfortunately for use, bad for modern fuel injected and sensored equiped engines which rely on clean burns to protect those sensitive, emissions sensors, such as catalytic convertors,(Rhodium based), and the newer substrata type convertors which burn at an even higher temp.

by **Jon** » 24 Jul 2007 20:39

I bought a new John Deere skip loader last year. The first oil change at 100 hours was included as standard practice by the dealer. While talking with the mechanic he said the break-in oil is different then the oil he is now installing in my tractor. When I asked him why, he said because people like me baby the machine too much and that affects proper break-in.

For what it's worth that is one of my past experiences. :s022:

by **Eddie** » 24 Jul 2007 20:51

Very interesting Jon, Thanks for the reply. I asked a few Pro-engine builders once what the worst thing on an engine was. There reply? Low speed idling. It's when the film strength of the oil is at it's "weakest" due to lack of pressure from the mechanically driven pump. As an engines rpm increases and thus the pressure, the film strength is "increased" due to the higher pressure between the bearings from the increase in rpm's. For this very reason, when I start my 440 up, I always idle it a t 2500 RPM right off the bat and keep it there. The camshaft lifter interface does not recieve any pressurized oil, it relys on splash lubrication and gravity to "give it oil" I dont rev it any higher until the oil warms and the pressure stabilizes though, dont want to spin a rod bearing! :thumbsup:

This back's up exactly what that diesel technician told you! :mrgreen:

by **Jon** » 25 Jul 2007 0:39

Ya Eddie, I have always run initial start-up at about 2000 RPM. It flows the thick oil thru the passages better along with slinging it where it is suppose to go. Also the forged pistons don't warm up and expand as quik as cast. That's from some one's recommendation way back in the old days.

I Didn't know it had the other benifits though. Jez, I need to stay more in tune. Good info. bro :thumbsup:

by **dave-r** » 25 Jul 2007 9:36

airfuelEddie wrote:Thanks for the Penrite link Dave. The Hughes link doesnt work however. If the Hughes article is on ZTDP additive then I have already read it and have used his additive for some time.

The link works for me?

It is their new solid lifters that have an oil hole right through them! Really simple but neat idea!

I don't think you are allowed ZTDP additives in the US now? They are going off the shelves.

The Hughes additive is just Molybdenum Carbamate (Moly)

by **dave-r** » 25 Jul 2007 9:37

Jon wrote:Ya Eddie, I have always run initial start-up at about 2000 RPM.

Me too. But that is because I don't have a choke. :lol:

by **Eddie** » 25 Jul 2007 12:39

Excellent Dave! I saw the Howards E.D.M. lifters with a hole burned through them, same concept, I think I'll use the Hughes lifters in my 474 project. I thought that the Hughes supplement had both additives,(ZDTP and liquid moly along with some phosphorous? I spoke with Dave inperson at the INDY trade show and thats what he stated. It really doesnt matter Dave, as I think it's a good additive for breakin and long term usage. I have switched completely to Amsoil as they use ZDTP in abundance. Another "group" of oils that you may consider is Royal Purple and RedLine oil. Both have a racing background and are used by many Teams. I used to have a chart that contained an oil analysis of all the major oil suppliers and the additive package they used. RedLine, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Torco, Joe Gibbs, Diesel CF, all contained the high pressure additives our engines need with a flat tappet cam interface issue. The only drawback was expense, which I'm sure isnt an issue with us. Cam Swaps are more expensive by far. They ought to sell Old English motor oil, then they would sell out over here with it. :mrgreen:

Most would think it's developed during the horse drawn carriage days and contains copius quantities of the additive! :biggrin:

BTW, I dont have functioning choke or vacum advance either!

by **dave-r** » 25 Jul 2007 13:29

Just keep an eye on the spec of those oils as over time they will stop adding zinc in a lot of them.

by **Eddie** » 25 Jul 2007 18:56

dave-r wrote:Just keep an eye on the spec of those oils as over time they will stop adding zinc in a lot of them.

How do we do that Dave? I e-mailed Shell Lubricants and asked them if they could tell me how many PPM ZTDP their oil contained. They informed me it did contain it but wouldn't give any ratio as this is "proprietary info"

Keep in mind also, that once the "wear pattern" has been established,(Break-in), on the lifter crown I think the additive package becomes less of an issue.

by **Eddie** » 02 Aug 2007 20:25

Incredible, I had to adjust the RPM at idle back to 900. The idle had "increased" to a little over 1000 after the oil and filter change. The Amsoil rep had "warned" me about this. It's not a bad thing however, and has to be from reduced friction. It should for 8.36 a Quart! and 18.65 per filter! It comes to about 80.00 for a oil/filter change! :mrgreen:

by **ianandjess** » 03 Aug 2007 13:45

ouch thats a costly service i get off lightly with services i use deisel oil from work so i only have to buy the filter & never had any problems ive had people tell me that the detergent in deisel oil is bad for petrol engines but ive used it in old engines with no ill effect & ive been told that if a petrol engine uses deisel oil all its life its better for it i dont know any of the technical crap but it works for me so ill keep using it
cheers ian

by **Eddie** » 03 Aug 2007 20:21

Good for you Ian! I too would keep using what your using! If it works keep doing it man! I seem to have a bad habit with "Zinc Paranoia" or the lack of it specifically! I started out with Shell Rotella and it worked fine. Now the govt. wants the U.S. markets to reduce Zinc additives (high pressure), to reduce emissions sensors contamination, thus cam failures here in the usa have become common place. The amsoil is loaded with the additive I need, I guess it also helps me sleep at night :biggrin:

The "problem" is they also have reduced our diesel oil's additives for the Heavy Duty truck market! Royal Purple, Amsoil,(Americas first 100% synthetic 1972), Red Line all contain ample amounts of Zinc for vintage engines, as does all the Race Oils by Valvoline, Castrol, pennzoil, ect.. Be careful with race only lubricants, some may not contain or have very little detergents, I wouldnt use them on the street as they are NOT designed for prolonged change intervals, Detergent is a good thing not bad.(Dual performance Street Strip) :V8:

by **Eddie** » 04 Aug 2007 12:00

I forgot to mention this and it's pretty important. Do not use diesel oil in an engine that has used conventional oil in it for some time. It may cause your pick up tube to become plugged with sludge or debris and plug your pick up tube wiping out your main and rod bearings. Diesel oil has at least twice the detergent in it than regular gasoline rated oil, thus "attacking" the deposits in the engine and instead of slowly dissolving them, breaks it off in chunks and plugs the tube. Bad scene.

by **ianandjess** » 04 Aug 2007 13:17

thanks eddie i knew it could cause issues if you change a fairly worn engine over to deisel oil but i didnt know the real reason everyone has an opinion but that make the most sense out of all that ive heard
cheers ian

by **Eddie** » 05 Aug 2007 15:30

Another option for you Dave is Hughes new engine oil he has available. He didnt include any "ratings" on it from the S.A.E.,(Societyof American Engineers). I wonder also, if it contains any detergent? it is "marketed" as a Race Oil. :?: