The Dodge Challenger Message Board

Hi,

I'm considering buying an engine for my 70 R/T clone. It has a very tired 440 from the late 70's and because of my very limited engine experience and knowledge, I can't rely on myself rebuilding it, at least not for a while.

I have thought of a few options and wonder if you guys have any pros and cons on them in terms of A) driveability B) economy C) durability. My options:

1. Professionally rebuilt 440. Assume a 0.030 bored old block with all new parts from the performance line.

2. Experienced amateur's 470 stroker build. Driven for half a season, dynoed to 600hp.

3. Crate 426 Hemi from e.g. mopartsracing or similar.

4. Crate 440 High Performance.

Of course they vary considerably in purchasing price, but let's pretend they don't. Which will make this rookie Challenger owner the most happy?

Thanks
Fredrik, Sweden

Do you have any idea of how costly the different alternatives will be?

Hi Christer,

I do, more or less. All options, except alt. 2, will have to be shipped and taxed if purchased abroad of course.

1. Professionally rebuilt 440 - $6000

2. Experienced amateur's 470 stroker build - $6000

3. Crate 426 Hemi - $13000

4. Crate 440 High Performance - $9000

Thanks
/F

What do you want to do with the car?

If you want to use it mainly on the street and highway, don't take the 600 HP stroker. It's probably a very potent mill, but it's not a street engine.

A good street 440 will make up to 500 HP around 5500 RPM. And have its max torque 1000 RPM below that. A good hydraulic camshaft can be used in such an engine.

600HP from a 470 means you get them around 6000-6500 RPM, there is a very noticeable idle which your neighbours will most likely think unbearable, 'real' torque starts above 2000-2500 RPM, ported aluminum heads that will go on breathing well into the 7000s...
Also consider you will need a new converter for this kind of engine.

Beware of what racers call 'streetable'. Yeah right, streetable as in 'I won't lose any teeth as long as I keep my mouth shut while I drive'.

A well-built street bottom-end, built for torque, will be a blast to drive on the streets.

Now if strip use is in your plans, forget the above. Go for the one-season 470 engine, as long as it has good oil pressure (above 70 psi cold and at least 45-50 warm), no slack in timing chain, etc. Ask the builder about the bearing clearances he chosed to use, and whether he considered street and strip use or strip only.

Either way (street or strip), you can find experienced engine builders on the moparts forum for example.

Do you have any spec on the stroker engine? (carb, intake and so on...)

Hi,

I won't be racing, this will be driven in the streets only. I just want to drive around, feel the torque and impress girls

Maybe good to know, I have an 8 3/4 with 3.23, and a 727 which I know nothing about.

About the stroker, I have the specs in Swedish only, but let me translate an extract:
* Demon 850
* Custom made cam from Scott Brown, 540/530, duration ~300
* Originally 400 block, bored 0.020.
* New bearings for all rotating parts
* Forged pistons, ROSS, 16cc out
* 906s ported and ground to "closed chambers", i.e. 71cc
* Alu intake
* etc
/F

Freddesjunne, how much experience do you have? You can get all the engine advice right here! If I were you I would "go" with the 440, little maintenance especially with a hyd. cam and dual plane intake and a 750/850 Holley. Go for torque not peak horsepower! Pass on the lowdeck stroker as it wont be tractable on the street below 3000 rpm. Its designed for the dragstrip. The oil control on the short pistons and the fact that its got a healthy cam leaves a lot to be desired for a true street engine that is no fuss no muss! Above 3000 rpm sure it will flat out scream! But how many times are you gonna be at that rpm 5% maybe 10%? The Hemi is awesome but if you dont like tuning 2-4s stay away from it. A large engine with a dual plane and hyd. cam sounds like the plan, Man. It willbe the cheapest as well and Mopar Perf. makes 80% of its parts for that family of engines.

Hi Eddie,

I have zero practical experience. I've kind of read a bit and understand the theoretic basics about cam parameters, head flowing, etc, but that's it. I know a couple of guys who can help me out with practical stuff, but they keep telling me to go for the Hemi without really being able to motivate the high price (other than the cred factor).

I'm looking for torque and I want an engine which won't fail too often. Still, I want the engine to be in 'cronological harmony' with the car, so I'd rather not buy a modern fuel injected engine.

/F

Thanks for the advice, guys. You seem to agree on the 470 as being too much. But what about maintenance on a Hemi? Eddie, I didn't quite catch what you meant by tuning? Rockers? Ignition? Carb 'richness'? Should I worry about Hemi spare parts being filthy expensive? I'd like to think that if I invest in a Hemi, the value of my car increases at least by a bit more than if I go for a 440?

Also, I honestly don't understand the difference between a crate 440 and a rebuilt 440 with all new parts? Is it only the block that differs?

And I don't understand what the difference is between a BB V8 found in a modern muscle car and a crate 440. Do the crate engine manufacturers deliberately cast blocks old-school-style?

/F

freddesjunne wrote:I just want to drive around, feel the torque and impress girls

Then all you need to have is torque and money... Never too much of both!

Maybe good to know, I have an 8 3/4 with 3.23, and a 727 which I know nothing about.

Fairly standard setup for a road-going car. Many americans prefer the 3.55, but the price of gas here make the 3.23 better. I even have a friend who used to have a 2.76 in his six-pack cuda for a long while and enjoyed it on the highway.

About the stroker, I have the specs in Swedish only, but let me translate an extract:
* Demon 850

No choke, mechanical secondaries race carb. BAD.

* Custom made cam from Scott Brown, 540/530, duration ~300

540/530 ??? Funny numbers. Anyway, a duration of 300 doesn't not scream 'Street' (I have a camshaft from Scott Brown in my 496ci - it is kind of wild in my opinion - don't get me wrong, I love it, but this is certainly not what I'd call a street car).

* Originally 400 block, bored 0.020.
* New bearings for all rotating parts
* Forged pistons, ROSS, 16cc out
* 906s ported and ground to "closed chambers", i.e. 71cc
* Alu intake

It all depends on what you can do. And that does not only depends on your abilities, but also on tools you have or can borrow (engine stands, workshop, precision measuring tools). I'm an electronics engineer, so I had no prior knowledge of mechanics when I started my engine last winter. I had a few years' worth of seeing pics on forums, reading mechanics books, etc. I did buy all the tools I needed, and probably a few I didn't, but as I was rebuilding a complete engine from scratch, it was worth it (and it took me 8 or 9 months). It wouldn't be cost-effective to set this all up just to replace the bearings and camshaft in that engine.

My advice : don't buy this particular engine, leave it for someone who will race it, that's what it was made for.
That is, unless :
- you have access to all the required equipment to replace the camshaft
- a knowledgeable friend can help you out
- the compression ratio of this engine is at or under 10.5

if you can't say 'yes' to all of the above, you need to look for another engine. When dealing with american engine builders, make sure they know what you mean by 'street' engine. Talk about cruising, hydraulic camshaft, low-end torque, max power at 5500 RPM. The carb should be a 750 with vacuum secondaries (say, for example, a Holley 3310), and a choke (electric or manual). No headers, keep the exhaust manifolds, install a 'X' crossover if you have separate exhaust lines, etc.

Fabian has some very good advice and I agree with all of it. If I were you I would consider the 440 and have it built to 440 Magnum specs with a modern hyd. cam, dual plane intake and vacuum secondary carb, efficient dual exhaust system with the x-pipe and hi-flow mufflers. You will have 500lb. ft. torque from idle to 6000 rpm, reliability, decent horsepower, then you're biggest worries will be with the women not the car.

If you know the guy who built the stroker engine (the owner?) and trust him, then I would choose that engine. #2 in other words. I would sell the carb, the camshaft, the intake and choose something more moderate instead, like a 750 vac, dual plane intake and a street cam with much lift/less duration. (Some of these thoughts have already been mentioned by the other guys above.) I think that would give you most value for the money. Want me to explain further? - Go ahead and ask! Good luck!

Fredsjunne, there is a lot of great advice here, and for the most part it's all accurate. The question I would ask myself first is the operating range of the engine. If you have 4.10 gears and a loose or high stall converter then high rpm is the plan and the Hemi and the 470 Stroker would be a feasable alternative, remember the 426 Hemi and the large port heads on the stroker,( I assume it has alloy heads or heavily ported cast iron oem heads), are engineered for high lift and high flow. Large intake port engines by their very nature seem to have a lazy low speed signal to the carb. INDY, Gen.II Hemi, Brodix, Brewer all have this "competion feature. If the intake ports are above 260cc for a 440 C.I.D. then its gonna be a slug at low speed now matter what cam you run in it, also the oil control rings will have a hard time keeping oil out of the chambers on that stroker, especially if its got stock rods in it. Even with aftermarket rods the piston will be rocking around a lot more than the 440 due to the piston being so short. For a few thousand miles a year ok go with the stroker and let her rip it will scream, but dont expect 50k or 100k durability out of it.

Fabian, I almost figured you were an electronics engineer, judging from your signature . (I'm one too).

I'm familiar with the guy who built the stroker and I definitely trust him. Besides, he doesn't own it anymore, so he's kind of neutral.

This decision is killing me. It's a lot of money, still I somehow can't afford not to do this.

Thanks again for the advice, everyone. I'll let you know what happens.

/Fredrik

freddesjunne wrote: so he's kind of neutral.

Then he can tell you if this engine is streetable or not (and you can judge what he calls streetable by the kind of cars he drives). And whether it's better to buy and modify it (camshaft, maybe head gasket thickness if compression ratio is too high, new bearings if the clearances are too high), or buy another one.

He can tell you if that engine can be used with stock manifolds and pump gas with just a new camshaft and a carb.

If the price is right, it's probably easier to buy that engine and change the cam and lifters.
Would this guy (is he a friend?) help you do this, or do it for you (for free, or for a fee)?
If that's the case, that would be the best solution. He already knows the engine, since he built it himself, and he can probably help you chose a camshaft.

The decision is killing you ? hehehe... Been there, done that... you'll have a big grin on your face when you do this (see pic)