The Dodge Challenger Message Board

There is a lot of engine offers for mopar but when you really want power,what is the best choice?

The first : Hemi/wedge?

The second : Once you decided the engine type, what is the best company to treat with?

www.raybarton.com
www.indyheads.com
www.hughesengines.com
www.musclemotorsracing.com
John Arruzza

They promise around 600 hp engines with new 4.150 crank, displacing from 472 (hemi) to 500 (wedge) and using aluminium heads on the second one (indy, edelbrock, bulldog)...

I'd say whatever you want to go with kinda. If you'd rather be able to slap a hemi logo on the side, go for a hemi. I'd take a wedge myself. I'm not sure of the companies, though.

plum-crazy wrote:There is a lot of engine offers for mopar but when you really want power,what is the best choice?

The first : Hemi/wedge?

Hemi parts are much more expensive.

plum-crazy wrote:The second : Once you decided the engine type, what is the best company to treat with?

www.raybarton.com
www.indyheads.com
www.hughesengines.com
www.musclemotorsracing.com
John Arruzza

They promise around 600 hp engines with new 4.150 crank, displacing from 472 (hemi) to 500 (wedge) and using aluminium heads on the second one (indy, edelbrock, bulldog)...

On that list, I'd say Ray Barton or Muscle Motors. I'd also add Best Machine Racing Engines, and a couple others (check the engine building contest from Mopar Muscle).

From what I see regularly on the Moparts forum, I'd stay (far) away from Hugues Engines...
Indy heads build good parts, but unless you want a 600ci+ engine, I wouldn't ask them for a complete engine.

fbernard wrote:From what I see regularly on the Moparts forum, I'd stay (far) away from Hugues Engines....

They used to love him on there until he called them a bunch of idiots. Then all of a sudden they were all saying they would never use him again.
I would take anything they say on there with a pinch of salt. There are some real red neck idiots on there.

The only thing I would say about Hughes is it is pointless sending them emails. It is rare to get a reply. They really need to expand their staff numbers and improve customer care and relations. They also need to sort out credit card payments. It bothers me that one of Dave Hughes sons told me their bank will not allow them to take cerdit card payments. I wonder why?

Ray Barton used to be good if not the best but stuff has been going on in there and I believe things have been going downhill.

I would stay away from Hemis. Not worth the hassle and are expensive.

dave-r wrote:They used to love him on there until he called them a bunch of idiots. Then all of a sudden they were all saying they would never use him again.
I would take anything they say on there with a pinch of salt. There are some real red neck idiots on there.

With any community this large, there's bound to be some idiots among the board members. And as I always say, everything is bigger is the US
(yes, including idiots ).

What bothers me about Hugues is not their non-existent tech line heard about on moparts, but rather the way they bash competition. This article on their web site is clearly aimed at 440source :

http://www.hughesengines.com/general/te ... ID=1000037

Not only is it pure lame bullshit (there's no surprise about 440Source not being a machine shop, it's written on almost every page on their site), but seeing a vendor bad-mouthing a competitor's product (said competitor being friendly, available, and carrying good quality products) is something that will definitely not make me anxious to do any kind of business with them.

dave-r wrote:The only thing I would say about Hughes is it is pointless sending them emails. It is rare to get a reply. They really need to expand their staff numbers and improve customer care and relations. They also need to sort out credit card payments. It bothers me that one of Dave Hughes sons told me their bank will not allow them to take cerdit card payments. I wonder why?

Ray Barton used to be good if not the best but stuff has been going on in there and I believe things have been going downhill.

I visited Ray's shop twice, and was amazed at the size and quality of the outfit. I've heard about some gripes people have about him (also on moparts), and I'd say PR may not be his strong point. On the other hand, there probably aren't many shops even in the US that build 150+ engines a year (most of those hemis).
If you're in the market for a SuperStock Hemi engine, or a 1000+ HP pump gas wegde mill, Ray's shop is the way to go.

If you want a "standard" 500ci engine, Ray Barton is probably too expensive as far as street prices go. But any engine that leaves is shop has gone through the dyno first (And this is definitely the place I would call if I was looking for ported heads).

That's why I mentioned BMRE, and I should also have mentioned CRE (Chenoweth Racing Engines or something like that, web site is www.gearsandrears.com). I have their main girdle kit, and it's really a nice piece. They also carry complete short blocks in kit form, all machine shop work done, only assembly required.

That (building your own engine) is, in my opinion, the best way to go (once you have found a reliable shop to do all the machine work and balancing. That's what I did (all in all, it took me a year, but I'm slow and there's no reputable machine shop in France for V8s). A friend of mine recently ordered an engine from Muscle Motors, and the price (around 6000 Euros) is roughly 1000-1500 USD more than what I bought in parts (cost is probably even closer if I include the tools I had to buy too), although I also bought an MSD box, a LM1 kit, and stuff like that, and I already had the heads, intake, and exhaust manifolds.

I agree that Muscle Motors seem good value for money and have never heard anything bad about them.

I also agree that Dave Hughes needs to bite his tougue a bit. But remember that it is common in US advertising to put down rival companies.

With Ray Barton I believe there was recently some internal politics/problems and I heard the head engineer left.
I know a guy over here who ended up with a few problems because of this. Ray also insists on doing machine work that is not really needed on a street/strip engine. Fine for his reputation but bad for your wallet.

Actually I heard Ray was originally British. Anyone know if this is correct?

I am lucky in that just a few hours drive away there is this place http://www.performanceunlimited.co.uk/ This guy is good but expensive.

We also have this place http://www.hauserracing.com/

The latter does not do "in house" machine work. He uses a place near by that does machine work for him. Again the end result is very good.

dave-r wrote:
Actually I heard Ray was originally British. Anyone know if this is correct?

That might explain his grumpy ways...

Thanks for your replys.
I like musclemotors, they promise 626 hp on their 496 wedge.
I think it will be around 450 rwhp at all.What do you think about it?

plum-crazy wrote:Thanks for your replys.
I like musclemotors, they promise 626 hp on their 496 wedge.
I think it will be around 450 rwhp at all.What do you think about it?

More like 550 rear wheel horsepower. You will need a lot of mods to handle that power.

I'm not sure Dave.
A lot of askings are flying on mi mind.
I hear good thinks about Indy, and his 451 RB 550 hp engine seems to be good choice and musclemotors only have one engine.
What brand do you recommend to me?

Talking about car handling i only "race" with street tires at 14 psi and do not have problems to handle with my 440.
I'm not sure that 550-600 hp engine pulls 500 at rear wheels, I think is possible lose about 20-25% power from crank to wheels.
I will be happy if these engines will pull about 450 REAL rwhp.

You said 626hp at the crank. Take off about 70hp to drive the trans and you get around 550 at the wheels.

I don't know who is the best builder for the money at the moment. There is so much choice.

There is 6000€ difference from wedge to hemi, I'm sure that this incresases the car value but now i'm talking about performance and manteinance.
People told me that hemi gives more power at high rpm but less torque than 440.
Can we translate this at 472 hemi and 496 wedge?
Both uses a 4.150 crank.

Do you think both are also drivable?

When you open the hood and you can see the wide valeve covers only can say : Oh my god! but 6k more!

I would use a Hemi if I wanted to show it off.

I would use a wedge if I wanted something easier and cheaper to maintain.

The reason the stock Hemi had less low rpm torque than the 440 was because of the large volume of the intake runners and ports. It meant that air velocity was lower at lower rpms tan the 440.
But it is also why the Hemi had more top end power.

With aftermarket ported 440 heads i doubt you could make the same comparrison.

Ok, the intake runners maybe makes this differences, I don't think about it , is true that we need air velocity all the time.
But what are you referring to, talking about cheaper to maintain?
Needs special cares hemi engine?

On the whole Hemis tend to be more trouble for some reason and if you need parts they are more expensive. Plus they weigh more.

You asked for opinions and that is mine. Others may not agree so don't just take my opinion. I have nothing against hemis and would love one in a Hot Rod but on ballance I would perfer a stroked 400 or stock stroke 440 in a car I wanted to use on the track.

In fact a stroked 400 is probably the best option out of the lot. But finding a good 400 is getting harder.

Yep, hemis have better top-end than a 440 and comparatively no low-end torque, but it's easy to make a wedge engine behave like that.

Big heads (Indy 440-1, B1) and a big solid camshaft will get the same results (that's what was on my engine - I hope the new bottom-end and camshaft makes this a little better).

Yes, I know hemi parts are more expensive and I think is harder to install in the car.

Ray Barton is selling a 451 B block but they tell nothing about HP or price.
Indy heads is selling his 451 "but" in RB block, and makes 550 hp (5700 rpm) / 500 torque (4500 rpm) at $10495.
Next stage on Indy is 500 wedge using "MEGA BLOCK" changing stroke from 3.750 to 4.150 pulling 630 hp(6200rpm!!!) /575 torque(4500 rpm) at $14175.

I don't understand make the more hp at more (+500) rpm increasing stroke?
It might be the other way around, or not?
I don't understand "mega block" name for 500 RB wdege because they are using 440 rb block to build it.

What is your opinion about 528 crate aluminium heads hemi?
This engineis offered for several companies but I think engines come from the same place, Chrysler direct connection.

Mega block, cross bolted main, alu. heads...
610 hp and 650 lbs/ft torque are good numbers too and maybe is a drivable engine on the street.

plum-crazy wrote:What is your opinion about 528 crate aluminium heads hemi?

Heard many bad things about the big-block crate engines. Whoever is assembling those for Chrysler has a pretty bad reputation.

Sure?
I heard a lot of things about americans but this is the last one!
What's up with american people?
Only kids are working?
Study them the best way to make money giving the worst price/quality relation?
I'm talking about 15000 dollars and seems that I only purchase a shit on this price!
Sometimes I like to sell the car and buy a japanese one...

The Crate engines were being made to a price in Mexico I think?

Since then my understanding is that the quality has improved a great deal.

I would still get one from a professional engine builder though.

There is nothing wrong with the skills of American engineers! It is the pressure from company accountants to source everything out to the cheapest suppliers that is killing the quality.

Real quality takes a skilled man time to produce and that costs too much for people like Chrysler who are loosing money hand over fist along with the rest of them.

Why don't you save us all the trouble and find a Spaniard to build your engine? Order the parts and give him/her a conversion chart for torque specs and see how they do. A lot of whining here it seems. Without the Americans you would not have your MOPAR and possibly be still riding a horse. Just buy the motor or were you looking to bash all along?

Tom

Lets not let this get carried away folks.!

He is only fustrated and confused by all the conflicting advice and warnings. He has already spent a lot of money and is still not getting the power promised. He is still learning that it takes a great deal and thought to select the right parts for an engine. And lots of experience.

We all know Ma MoPar has her quality control problems. Always has and still has. But this does not reflect on the workmanship of good American engineers that build stuff with pride, for the love of it and not on a production line for a low wage.

Plum-Crazy you really need to pick an engine builder and tell him how much power you want. Then let him make all the decisions and do all the work. You don't want an engine built on a production line. You want it built by someone that knows what he is doing and cares about his work.

There are many Mopar specific engine builders like that in the USA. They are all good. It is no good asking us what this company or that company is like. There will be very few of us that would have been in the position to buy a complete engine. Pick a product and stick with it. It will come good in the end.

In fact If i were you Plum-Crazy I would just decide how fast you want to go. Make that decision and stick with it.

Then contact the various engine builders and tell them that. Plus you need to give specific information about the car such as the weight.

They can then tell you what they reccommend and how much it will cost you.

Then when you have enough to choose from pick one and stick with it.

This way you will succeed.

Now keep cool everyone.
Remember that message boards do not always put across the true meaning of words and when working in a language that is not your own it can be very misleading.

Sorry for the snappy response it just seems some bashing going on. Find a local Machine shop to assemble the parts your looking for and that way if there is a quality problem you can deal face to face not on phone/web. Good luck with your selection
Tom

Thanks Tom.

First of all, sorry guys if I hurt somebody with my comments.
I mean that I do not understand somebody could have any problems with a "factory" built $15000 engine.
I think I 'm not the only one who makes an effort to get his ride.
Certainly this is not america, It's spain and we haven't american language, american engines knowledgements or american tools, but one think I can say to everybody. We have a lot of liking with american cars and Is too hard for us to protest any problem we have with defective parts to the states.
I can list a looooooooooooooooong list of this type of problems we had here and like we say here in spain, "we eaten it with potatoes". I have a bookcase plenty of a parts sellers mistakes (and own mistakes too).

Certainly is too far from my thoughts buy a $15000 engine, bring it to spain, pay all the tax, install on the car and have problems due a wrong builder or something like that because we know about the answer.

Bring again the engine to us and we check it, then I will tell you something.

Man, we are on the other side of the ocean and this is an engine, not a watch.

Problably I will trade to a professional builder who can give me a real warranty of his final products.

Sorry for this brick!

To get what you want parts selection is critical.

The wrong combination of parts always ends up with disapointing results.

You have to start with deciding exactly how fast you want to go and how high the rpm.

Then pick a cam with a duration that gives you peak power a bit below your max rpm. This also depends on engine size.

Then also make sure your cam gives you as much vlave lift as possible for the amount of duration.

Then pick a pair of heads that will flow just enough for that cam and rpm. You don't want the runners too big or too small but slightly too small will help on the street.

Then pick an intake manifold that gives the best power in the rpm your cam makes best power.

Then pick a torque convertor that stalls high enough for the cam and engine size. Usually with a hot 440 this will be between 3000 and 4000 rpm stall.

Then pick a rear gear that suits the rear tyre diameter and the rpm the engine will be making power. It is NO GOOD AT ALL using 3.23:1 gears when the car needs 4.30:1.

Build your car and engine around these points and you will have success.

Yes, I'm sure I need to change rear end, but I'm not sure that build the engine here is the best choice for me.
A friend who have a 1972 RR buy me the current engine and i only have a hole in front of the 727.
This is my chance to do it right or wrong!