The Dodge Challenger Message Board

Can anyone help with the rebuild of my '72 440?

I have taken the engine to a local engine builder but they are not 'clued up' on 440 engines. I will have to advise them on what parts to fit and where to get them from etc, but I'm not too sure myself.

I'm going for a standard rebuild but want to use good quality components - where do I start?

I'm guessing that the rebuild will take 2/3 months.

Any help gratefully received.

Normally I would advise people to take their engines to a place that is experienced with building these. Hauser Racing is the favorite. However he is a bit expensive. The individual jobs seem to cost little but it all adds up pretty quick and then you add the £25/hour labor charge and VAT and before you know it you have spent £3K.

Hauser Racing will sell you everything you need even if you do not want them to build it. There are other sources for parts in the UK too. Just look in the ads at the back of the magazines.

What does the engine need? Is the crank OK? bearings? Does it need a re-bore? If so I doubt the machine shop has a torque plate.

You cannot just hand an engine over to someone and let them loose. They will spend your money like there is no tomorrow!

You do not need race parts in a stock rebuild. Don't spend money you don't have to. There is nothing wrong with the stock parts. They will work just as well.

Dave

The engine needs a rebore and probably crank regrind, cam, lifters etc. Will know more when its laid out and measured.
The main reason for not taking it to Hauser was the distance, 3hours whereas my local engine rebuilder is 2 miles away. The have built rover and stag v8's but are more used to mini race engines.
I have given them my 'How to' mopar books and they seem keen to get to grips with it.
By the way I was able to just fit the engine less heads in the back of my Mk 2 3 door 1988 VW Golf - even able to put the back seats up. The head lights were up at about 30 degrees and then hadling was quite strange!! I also found that the FBO engine cradle I recently bought is excellent for moving the engine around safely and would recommend it to anyone needing this type of kit.
I was also hopeing that with this boards help to I can identify which parts I need and then order them from the US parts sites Summit/Jegs etc. I would like to keep the cost under control and with the shop near me I can monitor what happens easily and help out if needed.
However it is possible that it will work out the same cost as Hauser but it's a gamble!

Mate. It is 250miles to Hausers from my house. We used Linda's Range Rover however and that took the weight no problem.
He did a first class job but the final bill was a bit of a shock!

Hauser is one of the few people over here with the torque plates that bolt in place of the cylinder head during final honing to make sure the bores are perfectly round. The piston rings seal much better this way and you make more power.

If you need lots of bits it might work out cheaper to by a complete kit like this http://www.hughesengines.com/crank_kits/440crankkit.asp

Well if it's that important I guess I could take the block up to Hauser for the rebore and hone at least it would be a little lighter without the crank and pistons - maybe get the headlights down to 20 degrees!

The final honed bore size depends on the pistons you use so you need to sort out your pistons first and follow thw manufacturers recommendations.

I've spoken to the local engine shop and he agrees that it is probably a good idea to get the block machined with the torque plates and at the same time get the oil way modifications carried out. So hopefully I should get the block up to Hausers within a week or two.
You say I need pistons before the boring is done so that the bores can match the new pistons, what are my options or should I pick a cam first?

Ok

all change, I have taken the engine out of the local shop and I'll take your advice and get the lump to the mopar specialists next week.

I just got back from the Lake District mate.

Ceptor wrote:what are my options or should I pick a cam first?

Ah! Now you did say you building to stock spec!

If you start fitting 'hotter' camshafts you start getting into different parts from stock for the rest of the engine.

So YES. Decide how much power you want and pick a cam/heads/intake/exhaust to match.

The cam will dictate the sort of piston and compression you want.

How do I decide how much power I want/need? I think the standard engine would produce say 250-300 hp but more is better to a point is it not? What I want is enough power but also maintain the cars easy and smooth drivability and try to maintain a reasonable mileage. A street only vehicle with strong acceleration up to say 90 mph, good vacuum and smooth idle. Is this combination possible?

PS. Rear is 2.88. weight approx 4000lb, with 3 speed tf8

Well. To make more torque you have to burn more fuel.

To make more power you have to either make more torque, move where you make the torque up the rpm scale, or both. Doing both make the most power.

But the higher up the rpm scale you go - the less you have that "easy and smooth drivability".
Plus that mileage is going to suffer.

These two links explain the effects of hotter cams and will give you an idea of the sort of non-stock parts you have to fit to the rest of the car as you go up the power stages.

http://www.hughesengines.com/cams/choosecam.asp

http://www.hughesengines.com/cams/heh_guide.asp

Everyone on this board thinks I must work for Hughes Engines or something. They are the only company I recommend to anyone. But that is only because I think they sell the best product for the price. Plus their web site is handy for explaining stuff.

Dave whats the desktop dyno called that you use? Did you pay for it is it free?

Dave,

which cam would you recommend from MoPar, Hughes, Crower, Crane. I was thinking of the Crower #32241.

Is this something I can just leave up to hauser and just tell them what I want the engine to do and let them select the parts? or should I have more of an input?

I'd be prepared to let slip the requirement to keep the engine stock if it meant I would get better reliability and more useable power. For example going to e-heads and roller rockers.

First things first. Get the idea out of your head that performance parts are somehow better than stock. They are not. Stock engines will run (with normal use) for over 100,000 miles.
Most performance parts end up with a shorter lifespan for various reasons.

Forget about aftermarket heads and roller rockers. You don't need or want them at this performance level. In fact the heads would not work as well as stock heads at this rpm and power level.
You also should get the stock HP type cast iron exhaust manifolds. You will hate headers.

The only mods you should comsider are;
A high volume oil pump.
A half inch oil pick-up (although I don't agree that this is needed at this level of performance)
A crank windage tray.
A baffled sump.

Electronic ignition.
Good 8mm spark plug leads.
NGK spark plugs.

That cam you have picked is a VERY good choice for a hot driver. It will feel stronger than the stock cam and the engine will have a good wide power band.

It has 220/223 duration at 0.050 lift and 0.478/0.486 valve lift. Not bad.

However. Look at the Hughes Engines version.

Cam HEH-1928-BL

219/228 duration at 0.050 lift. 0.489/0.524 valve lift.

This cam will make slightly more power with stock heads and cast iron headers because of the slightly better duration and lift on the exhaust valve and the slightly higher lift on the intake.

It will work well with KB pistons around the 9.5 to 1 compression ratio. It will run on normal cheap UK unleaded.
make sure the lifter bores are well within spec for the hughes cam.

Try to find a pair of '452' casting heads that have the hardened valve seats. If not you can have hardened valve seats put in your stock 1972 '346' heads (if that is what is fitted). Or you can forget about the seats and run the car without them. The valve seats will receed with time but so what? It will take ages and you have plenty of time to find the '452' heads.

Use 3.23 to 1 rear gears.
Use a 750cfm 4bbl carb.
Use a dual plane intake manifold.

Dave,

Great info thanks. I agree with using the cast manifolds as headers seem to transmit too much heat, the ones I have are 3614295 on both castings (long centre dump). One has a hairline crack which I will try and get welded up locally.

I may need also to replace the oil pan as my original is pretty bashed up.

Or this

Oops

Ooops indeed! I think I deleted one too many there! Sorry!

you could try `real steel` they are based in uxbridge they do small block mopar stuff, they may do big block if you give them a ring.

real steal american engine specialist
unit 9 tomo industrial estate
uxbridge
middlesex
ub82jb

01895440505

hope this helps

bryan

OK it's been a while but engine now collected and reinstalled it's be quite a hectic few days, but I have to take advantage of this recent few days nice weather, as always!
The engine has been built to a really high standard and I'm very pleased with the service provided. All that remains is to get a few other small jobs done and then I'll see if it was worth all the effort.

You fitted aluminium heads?? With stock iron manifolds? Arrrgh!

Oh well. It is looking very good. I forget what you are fitting this into. Is it going into a Jensen?

What was your final combination of parts used?

Dave hello again.

Yes I'm afraid so. However my original manifolds were junk so I got another set in better condition and had them ceramically coated to try and keep the heat in them.
I went with the Crower cam, Speed Pro pistons cr 9.5:1, E-heads and Performer intake, HV oil pump and 1/2" pick up, double roller chain, ARP con rod bolts and s/s bolt assembly package. I did keep the stock valve gear, ignition and steel crank all balanced etc. I couldn't resist the E-heads they were just too shiney!
I still need to fit the water pump housing once I get it p/coated etc and then think about a carb. I'm not too sure about the original Holley 4160 List no 6253 - cannot find out any info on this number.

As it's going into a Jensen, I guess there wasn't much room to get in some headers Dave. If it could be done, better order them asap...

I am sure you can get headers for the Jensen but they suffer very badly from high heat levels under the hood even as stock. With headers I can see there could be real problems.

The stock manifolds only just clear at the rear half and will probably contact the off-side inner bulkhead extension when the engine is reved. The heat soak is tremendous anyway and s/s headers would make the problem much worse unless they were of a v.thick material and coated inside and out. I think that the Challenger has much more engine bay room/volume which must limit the heat problem.

where did you get the engine built in the end?

Hauser Racing. They seem to be the experts at rebuilding American engines, but others will know more about them than me. I'm very pleased with their service.