Timing Marks • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **Caparco** » 16 May 2004 12:49

Went to fine tune my Timming on my 360 (i believe) got TDC on #1,checked the distributor and guess what i found,my car was running 180 degrees out! moved the distributor to the place it should be and now it won't even start let alone run better.I was advised to take off the front of the engine and check the timming marks,they may be way off.my question is before i do this, Is the firing order the same for all these mopar small blocks,or should i stop eveything...find out exactly what kinda engine is in it (instead of guessing) and get the propper firing order for that engine..the book i have only offers 2 different firing orders one for big blocks and one for small..this is what i went by

by **dave-r** » 16 May 2004 15:56

Leave the timing cover and cam alone. there is nothing wrong with them.

What made you think your timing was 180 gegrees out? Don't you know it is impossible for the engine to run like that? You sure it was not at TDC on the exhaust stroke? Remember that the crank goes around TWICE for every firing of the cylinder.

Put things back the way they were until you understand how it all works. Most likely you have pulled the distributor out and put it back in 180 degrees out? Doing that is fine as long as you then change all the spark plug leads to suit!

For a start all mopar V8s have the same firing order big or small block.
It is 18436572. I don't even have to look it up. It is imprinted into my head.

Get the thing running again and then set the timing.

by jr » 16 May 2004 16:45

dave-r wrote:What made you think your timing was 180 gegrees out? Don't you know it is impossible for the engine to run like that? You sure it was not at TDC on the exhaust stroke? Remember that the crank goes around TWICE for every firing of the cylinder.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/flash/engine.swf
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/engine-labels.gif
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm/printable

by **dave-r** » 16 May 2004 17:50

What a cool web site! Very handy animation that. Pity the lables are not on the diagram itself though.

by **dave-r** » 16 May 2004 17:54

I hope Caparco does not think I am being impatient with him! I know it seems that way sometimes when you read what I have written but that is due to my lack of skill as a writer. It always sounds harsh when I put it down here.

Then again maybe I am harsh! :shock:

by **Caparco** » 16 May 2004 22:10

Oh god Dave..Please...we are GUYS!!..don't worry about how you talk to me...lol...you know i always come to this site for advice

Anyway....my car was pinging alot and 'sometimes' stalling at lights or shifting from park to drive

So I removed #1 plug got it to TDC with a screwdriver..opened the cap and the roter was pointing at #6 shouldn't it be pointing at #1?

This is how i thought it was 180 out

I think your right about not taking the engine apart to check the timing marks..but my friend seems to think its way out...when we pulled the distributor and pointed it to #1 the thing wouldn't even start..as you can see from my other posts I bein looking at everything to get it running good...adjusting the carb...etc..etc

and no..i din't know there is 2 different TDC..i just thought if the piston is at the Top..it means TDC

So now im really confused of what to do...very easy for me to put the distributor back where it was and have it running again

by **dave-r** » 16 May 2004 22:31

If it was pointing to #6 it was TDC on the exhaust stroke in #1. Just put it back to how it was and read the stuff about setting timing.

by **dave-r** » 17 May 2004 7:32

I was in a hurry last night when I wrote that so here is a fuller answer.

The crank goes around twice for every one revolution of the camshaft and distributor.
So the piston goes from TDC on the firing stroke, it gets pushed down by the expanding gasses (both valves closed), it comes back up to TDC to push out the exhaust gas (exhaust valve open), it goes down again to draw in air fuel (inlet vale open), then back up again to fire (both valves closed).

On a V8 you always have two pistons coming up to TDC at the same time. Only one is always on the compression stroke and one on the exhaust stroke.
Here is the firing order again;

1843 6572

This time I have split the numbers in half. When #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke #6 is at TDC on the exhaust stroke and vice-versa.

Following on. #8 and #5 come up at the same time (after 90 degrees of crank movement). Then #4 and #7 (another 90 degrees). See the pattern?

So the timing mark on the crank pulley comes around twice. Once for #1 and once for #6. This means you can use #6 to time your engine just as well as #1. In fact using #6 makes life a lot easier on a big block where you need to be on the passenger side of the car to see the timing marks and adjust the distributor.

by **Caparco** » 30 May 2004 14:14

Dave... I think i found my timming problems...very nice and easy step by step directions you gave by the way ..Thanks

But is it correct saying you can tweek the oil pump with a long screw driver in the distributor hole so that when you drop it in it does point towards the #1 piston like the diagram shows...I think this may be all my timming problems..I put it in before and it was "close"..and i said "well its close enough"..I didn't think this could be turned.

cause the chances of someone putting the timming chain in a chip off or something is very slim... but i think after i try this today..I might just have to look at the chain and make sure its right...thanks again..wish me luck.

by **Caparco** » 30 May 2004 21:06

nope no good!

I just got it back running again..at TDC the distributor gear is just not pointing to the first intake bolt..more like the #5 cylinder.and no..it doesn't move! I guess its plain to see my timming marks are off..they have to be. Ill never get this timming right if i can't drop the distributor in the right spot...now its just close and back to running rough again...smoking up a storm too!..

anyway...I got bad news when I searched for more background on the engine..the guy who actually put the engine in said it was never a good engine in the first place..it was a school engine that all the students used to timker and mess around with.he said the tops of the pistons where all dinged up from people shoving stuff in there for fun... I vey!

but under the same breath he offered to sell me a whole bunch of mopar engines.. he's got a reall good 383 with 30,000 on it..a brand new Crate 360, he got 2 440's one witha six pack on it..now that is making me think!

although untill i make that new engine move im not sure what i should put any money in this one..I mean its hard to see how the enginme is if its not in the right time..I get good compression..I don't get any oil or black smoke out the back..I do have white smoking problem though...some puffing right out of the valve cover..when at idle!! no less

well its dission time for ..a new 383 for 2,000 bucks is looking real good now

by **dave-r** » 30 May 2004 21:37

The drive gear just lifts up. You then turn it and drop it back in. Because the teeth are not straight you have to experiment until it lands in the correct position. Even if it is not in the factory correct position it makes no real difference as long as you are sure you are at TDC on the compression stroke and call the distributor post that the rotor is pointing to #1.

Don't get a 383 if you plan performance. It is getting hard to get high compression pistons for them.

by **Caparco** » 31 May 2004 7:33

wow dave you never seiz to amaze me!,,, Ill try it in the morning..why didn't i catch that in the book!..good news anyway!..thanks for all your help guy!!

by **Roger** » 02 Jun 2004 23:51

Okay Dave - I'm looking for some guidance in the timing stakes also. As you know, I've been far too long getting my challenger back on the road (mainly due to the loss of a close friend). This said, I have just about finished reassembly of my motor and it's almost ready to put back in (now that the steering box has been rebuilt). It was sent away to a "good" engineering mob for the bottom end, bore and pistons. I'm happy with the work done by them. Another mate who's into mopars and Jensens has done the cast iron heads up for me and they should give the little 318 (+30 thou) some more breath, with the oversized stainless valves & hardened seats etc. I have now got everything back together with the exception of the drive shaft for the oil pump (and distributor). I was hoping to simply drop this in from the top once I figured out which position to do it. Not having a manual to use, I'm relying on the expertise of friends and associates - I've been told to drop er in so the drive groove for the dizzy is pointing to No 1 - Hmph - not sure how to do this with ease - any suggestions readily accepted mate! It looks as though it would be real easy to miss a position on the gear teeth or hex position. Don't be too cruel - after all, I'm just a backyard learner and this is the first time I've ever attempted rebuilding a motor.

by **Roger** » 03 Jun 2004 1:05

Hey Dave - reading through your extensive post marked "how to set your ignition timing". If I still need assistance I'll get back to you.

This site and all the members' input is a true gift and I'm constantly thankful...

Cheers big ears...Roger

by **dave-r** » 03 Jun 2004 7:26

I used to get a LOT of questions about timing and since I wrote that thread those questions have dropped off a lot. I guess people must be finding it useful.

Still waiting to see the photos of your round the world trip Roger!

by **Roger** » 03 Jun 2004 22:32

I took out a third mortgage and have just about got everything I need to finish off my car (with the exception of the body & paint work). With any luck, I should have the motor back in and car running in a couple of weeks (when my final shipment from YO arrives at the end of the month).
Sorry about the lack of pics Dave, but all the images are on my laptop and I've been too slack to hook it up to the modem and adjust the image sizes. Once I'm on top of a few things here I'll get to it. That's a promise.
I'll have a go at dropping in the oil pump/dizzy shaft tomorrow and will use your instructions. So hard to do all this in my back-yard shed with no manual to follow, but I'm getting there.......slowly but surely.
cheers...