[Steve Friend (Sf)]

Well, time for some head scratching.

My Challenger is sick. Sorta.
It is having a problem turning over when starting. It acts like a low
battery but the batter checks out fine. Running a red top Optima, in the
trunk.

The hot line running to the engine is welders cable "0". The ground is 4
gage tied to a bare spot in the trunk.
The engine is grounded up front via a 19" 4 gage line running from the block
to the body. All connections have been checked.
The wires to the starter look fine. Good connections.
All connections have been checked and double checked. all lines are new.

The sympoms is first start, no hesitation. The second has a slight pause and
then turns over fine. The third or fourth requires the key to stay on, and
after a couple of seconds, it will turn over fine after one "rrrump". After
that, it will not start

The Alternator it putting out fine. And it does not matter if all those
starts are with in a few minutes or a few hours.

The only way to correct this is to thro the battery charger on to bring the
battery charge up top.

I have never had a starter do this or a starter solenoid, but that is what I
suppect now. It is not a pretty thing to replace. The headers wrap all
around it. I almost think that the headers will have to come off to replace
it.

Whatchathink?
Oh, when it does turn over, it starts in a snap.

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

Is it when the engine is hot that this happens? No header wrap on the headers?
If that is the case it sounds as if the heat from your headers is killing the starter.

The cure?
Try to keep the heat away from the starter with header wrap and something to insulate the starter.

However the best solution is to fit one of those cute high torque light weight mini-starters. I hear nothing but good reports about them.

[Fabien Bernard (Fbernard)]

Hi,

Can you check the voltage drop between the battery terminal (+) and the starter terminal?
All it takes is a voltmeter with (faily) long leads.

What do you mean by "the battery checks out fine"? I can't think of an easy and practical way of measuring actual cranking amperes.

If all it takes to comme back to the "first start, no hesitation" situation is to recharge the battery, try another one. It's a 5-minute swap. Even the battery from your daily driver won't suffer if you use it for a few tests. I'm not aware of the end-of life conditions for gel-based batteries, but from what you wrote, I'd say yours is dead.

The alternator is totally useless for starting, and you can't suspect starter overheating if you leave it alone for several minutes and it still doesn't start.
Starter problems are usually much simpler (i.e. stranded on the roadside under the rain at night)
You may have a charging system failure, but that's easily checked with the onboard gauges.

You didn't mention how long you drive between each start.

I agree with Dave about the lightweight starter and putting some kind of heat shield around the starter, but check your header's material and thickness before installing any heatwrap. Heavy gauge Stainless might be OK, but anything else may be severely damaged by heatwrap over time.

Heatwrap may protect your starter, plug wires,etc., but it prevents heat radiation from the headers, which makes them a lot hotter than normal. they will get oxidized a lot faster.


By the way, Dave, I think I saw your car in the line for a prize at the Nat's, but the French herd had to leave early... What did you get?

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

I got a half pint tankard with "Top Ten Special Award" stamped on it. It was very kind of the organisers to give me that.

Those are all good points you make above Fabien.

In the electrical section on here I did a bit on grounding and one part of that has the following;

"Remove the coil H.T. lead (to prevent engine starting). Put the negative probe of the meter onto the battery negative (YOU WILL HAVE TO USE A CHASSIS GROUND IF YOUR BATTERY IS IN THE TRUNK) and the positive probe onto a good solid ground on the starter motor case. Have a friend crank the engine and check the reading on the meter.

If there is more than 3/4 volt drop from the starter case to the negative battery terminal while cranking you should carefully inspect the battery cables, clean up all connections and make sure the bolts holding the starter motor are tight. If you still have over 3/4 volt drop then you can try heavier cables on the battery."

I would also add that it is best if the cable from the battery goes directly to the starter.

I read all kinds of horror storys about headers failing after being in header wrap. All I can say is that my cheap Hedman headers have been fine. Keeping the exhaust gas hot keeps it moving faster and that helps power a little.

(Message edited by roppa440 on August 14, 2003)

[Steve Friend (Sf)]

Sorry about the confusion on the Battery. It is new, like 6 months old and testing fine is adding a load test to it for 10 seconds and see what it does. If it falls low on the meter,then it is toast. I left this one for 20 seconds and it indicated fully charged. So, I suspect the battery is good.

The problem is not heat related. That would be too easy. It really makes no difference on when the subsequent starts occur during the day. The last time I drove the car 40 miles to a car show. Then, while everyone was giving me compliments, I tried to leave. You guessed it. So, after a jump from a portable power pack, it started. Moral to the story, don't start you car when there are oolgers around.

I will try the voltage drop. I knew that, but did not know the allowed amount of drop. Thanks. I will/am also going to buy about 15' of "0" cable and run the ground from the battery to the block to see if that will help. It just feels like the return path is not there. The positive side does run directly to the starter and all of the connections look great.

I checked the voltage at the battery and it is running right at 14.8 or so right after starting so it should be good.

This is really a puzzler. If I cannot figure this out, I will move the battery back up front.

Some small voice says that there still could be something in the starter solenoid.

Thanks

[Dave-R (Roppa440)]

I am still not sure what the symtom is.

Maybe you are saying that you turn the key and like nothing at all happens for a second or two and then suddenly the starter turns over normally?
Is that what you are saying? If so then it is a sticking solenoid for sure. It not only mechanically throws the starter gear into the ring gear but it also has to make an electrical contact between the battery and starter motor. So if it's movement is restricted it will a) not engage correctly, and b) not make a good electrical contact.
You should be able to clean/repair it.

You are right that the headers will have to come off. If you have manual steering you only have to remove the drivers side engine mount/dipstick and jack that side of the engine up as far as it will go. Then the header and the starter will come off together. You need to put them back in together too.

If you have power steering you might have to remove the passenger side header first so you can jack the engine over even further.

[Steve Friend (Sf)]

Well, of course I have power steering. And yes, the seems to be the situation. I ran the '0" cable today so we will see if thatn changes things. If not, well, heck (hell), I will be pulling the starter.

Thanks all

[Steve Friend (Sf)]

Welp, it appears to be the starter. None of the electrical things I have done seem to solve the problem. Thanks for help.

(I am not going to like this job