Two different 440's? • 2 • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **Alex (Alex)** » 17 Sep 2002 18:14

Aaaaaah I stand corrected sorry!

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 17 Sep 2002 20:03

Get used to it. I had to!

by **Alex (Alex)** » 17 Sep 2002 20:09

It's no problem, my eyes were not processing the info! + we all learn new stuff I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong!!

by **Richard Ward (Richard)** » 17 Sep 2002 20:14

body codes had year & plant reversed pretty sure engine & trans stamps were just last 8 digits of vin from '69

BTW popular wisdom seems to be that you're better off with a non HP engine as the early ones were all the same apart from the cam (and what's that going to be like after 34 years) 'cause at least it didn't go into a car that was almost guaranteed to be thrashed from day one.

by **Marc Durocher (Madmarc)** » 17 Sep 2002 22:16

wow. you guys were really making me wonder if those were the right numbers so i checked and...

heh, still the right numbers. so if HP means high performance then i can't use regular gas, but i didnt quite catch what you were all saying about it being HP2. so now all i need is the:

R483
11 14

this could be why i wasn't able to find the code online because you guru's cant even find it out. ooo, marc's got a crazy engine.
back to the gas though, this means NO regular gasoline only high performance/octane?

by **Alex (Alex)** » 18 Sep 2002 7:32

11 14 is the engine build date as Jim said.

R384 appears from Daves research to mean that originally numbers 4,8 and 3 rods were ground 001 undersize when the motor was new

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 18 Sep 2002 7:33

Marc. Read above again. I just explained R483 and Jim gave you 11 14.

Use whatever gas you can get away with. If the engine is making good compression and the ignition timing is advanced a lot you will have to use the better fuel.

by **Alex (Alex)** » 18 Sep 2002 7:34

I meant 4 8 3 crank journals, not rods, what a pillock, sorry!

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 18 Sep 2002 7:36

Hey Alex. We were posting at the same time! Shouldn't you be in bed taking it easy?

by **Alex (Alex)** » 18 Sep 2002 8:29

Yes! climbing the walls though, so what the hell, kill or cure!

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 18 Sep 2002 12:00

I know what you mean Alex. When I had my leg stripped of veins I had to have 4 weeks off work and wear a stocking for a couple of weeks. I never thought I would be glad to get back to work!
To releave the boredom I hopped (literally) onto a cheap flight to Dublin and spent a few days there soaking up the food, beer, and music. That helped a lot.

You want me to send you a few books?

by **Alex (Alex)** » 18 Sep 2002 14:51

Very good of you mate, but I have books, and videos.......

Just got to get on with it, can't stand doing nothing!

by **Marc Durocher (Madmarc)** » 18 Sep 2002 22:33

ok sorry bout that. heh, thanks for the replies i got lost reading those million posts at once.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 30 Sep 2002 19:35

I have had a bit of free time tonight and I thought I would do a bit of digging around on this subject.

I have found several sources that say the type of fuel used is on the pad on some cars. In that case R might well stand for regular fuel. But then we are left with the problem of what the numbers are.

I have also found a very reliable source that says the '2' in HP2 means the second shift. However as Jim was saying it is hard to find a 1970-71 440 car that does not have HP2 on the pad.
Now this could simply mean that most of these cars were built on that shift? I don't know.
I just came up with a theory of my own. Most performance Hamtramck cars seem to have been built on line 2 at the plant. It is most common to find EN2 on the end of the tag. Maybe HP2 is also a reference to this?
Shoot that theory down in flames if you want because I just made it up. But I wish we had more FACTS instead of hearsay.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 03 Oct 2002 19:31

I just noticed this in the 1970 workshop manual.

"A Maltese Cross stamped on the engine numbering pad indicates that engine is equipped with a crankshaft which has one or more connecting rods and/or main bearing journals finished 0.001 inch undersize. The position of the undersize journal or journals is stamped on a machine surface of the No.3 counterweight.

A Maltese Cross with an X indicates 0.010 inch undersize journals.

The connecting rod journals are identified by the letter "R" and main bearing journals by the letter "M". For example "M-1" indicates that No.1 main bearing is 0.001 inch undersize.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 04 Oct 2002 13:46

It is not clear from the above if they are saying that the 'R' or 'M' codes are on the engine numbering pad or the No.3 counterweight. But with Marc having R483 on the pad it still looks to me as if this is what it was refering to and not a reference to Regular fuel.

by **Hans (72challenger)** » 04 Oct 2002 15:31

All right, now I join the thread to confuse you even more Dave; at least maybe...

This would mean that Marc's rod journals #3,4,8 are undersized? Kind of unlogic to me is the way it's "written" 483, doesn't it make more sense when this would be 348?

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 04 Oct 2002 15:33

I wondered about that too. Unless they order them on one side of the engine and then the other, front to back.

by **Nick (74chall)** » 04 Nov 2002 16:40

Hello everyone, I just picked up a 440 for my challenger. After reading this thread I was wondering what I have so I was wondering if anyone could help me out. Here are the numbers.

Passenger side of block:
8. 74 . 78
4006630-440-1
D N

Driver side of block:
4006630-440-1

Top ledge on Block , (near where intake manifold sits)

9 T 440 E
9 5

Well there are the numbers, hope this makes sense.
Thanks Nick

by **Nick (74chall)** » 04 Nov 2002 16:59

Also , I know that I have a cast crank. I was wondering how much horsepower it can hold up to. Im also using my stock rods, but was going to get them shot peened . Im trying to build a budget 440 to get my challenger into the 12's. Any suggestions? Thanks for your help everyone. Nick

by **Alex (Alex)** » 04 Nov 2002 17:26

the 400... numbers are the casting numbers for the block. the D N letters should have an arrow pointing at them, it means day or night shift

by **Mike Lanouette (Mikel)** » 04 Nov 2002 19:55

HP2-SPECIAL HIGH PERFORMANCE (THIS DESIGNATES A
"SPECIAL HIGH PERFORMANCE" ENGINES INTERNAL PARTS
(HP+2)
9 T 440 E 9 5
9-1969 MODEL YEAR
T-TRENTON ASSEMBLY PLANT
440-440 C.I.D.
E-CAST CRANK
9-SEPTEMBER
5-FITH DAY OF MONTH
NOTE: IF M OR W NOT STAMPED IN MOST CASES,IT IS A
"TRENTON" BUILT ENGINE

by **Mike Lanouette (Mikel)** » 04 Nov 2002 20:56

CORRECTION,THE CASTING NUMBERS 4006630 IS FROM
1978 I AM WRONG FOR SAYING IT IS A 1969 ENGINE
SORRY

by **Alex (Alex)** » 04 Nov 2002 23:51

Hmmm I thought HP2 meant H.P. as in high performance, 2nd shift i.e HP2 nothing else...

by **Dave_R (Roppa440)** » 05 Nov 2002 9:41

We must all be getting old. We are starting to repeat ourselves! As stated above I thought the same as Mike and also thought the six-pack rods had something to do with it. Others (and a couple of books I looked in) say the same as Alex here.

As Jim commented. If HP2 just meant second shift then they made a hell of a lot of 1970-71 R/T cars on that second shift.

by **Alex (Alex)** » 06 Nov 2002 8:35

There was a major discussion on Moparts a while back regarding 6 pack motors and the way to confirm it is genuine. out of the discussion came two things, 1 you can't tell other than it being in a matching numbers car and 2 HP2 means second shift, they may be wrong, nothing is written in stone with these cars, but some of the resto industrys big hitters posted on that discussion.

by **Dave_R (Roppa440)** » 06 Nov 2002 10:15

Yeah but until recent years a lot of these 'big hitters' were also saying you only got six pack rods in six pack engines. I have even had two mopar engine builders tell me that. One in the USA (about ten years ago) and one over here (about 4 years ago).

I am not saying they are wrong about the second shift thing - what they are saying makes sense in a way. I would just like more information than hearsay.

I suppose the question to ask is this;

Did all 1970-71 440s get six pack rods?
If so then it makes it more likely in my mind that the 2nd shift thing is right.
If some had the normal rods I would be looking to see if those ones are stamped simply HP.

by **Alex (Alex)** » 06 Nov 2002 12:44

Aaaah but I know of two 440 blocks out of Jensons that are stamped H.P. and have 6 pack rods.......

by **Dave_R (Roppa440)** » 06 Nov 2002 12:55

Davey blocks that punch and with fast feet dances to the side and delivers a sharp left jab with...

What about my other theory then? The one about HP2 being stamped only on the line two assembled cars at Hamtramck? The tag ends EN2 and most R/T cars were built on line two there. The Jensens of course were not!

by **Alex (Alex)** » 06 Nov 2002 13:44

Al ducks and counters with.....

The engine codes on the pads were stamped at the engine •••. plant not the production line, only the partial v.i.n. was stamped on the motor at the car plant at the same time as on the 'box, and as a knockout blow to that theory Lynch Road 'Runners came through with H.P.2 motors as well.......