Challenger V-10? • The Dodge Challenger Message Board

by **Kane McKain (Challenger_x** » 09 Sep 2002 1:36

My originl plan for this set up was to be in a Dodge Charger. However I found a good Challenger for less. The plan was for a Viper V-10 bored from 488 to 540ci and mounted with quad turbos. I know I could fit this into a Charger, but granted as I'm knew to the Challenger I figured I would get the opinions of the penut gallery.

by **Jeff Maxwell (Redchalleng** » 09 Sep 2002 1:55

Seems to me I read about someone who did this in Mopar Collector's Guide a while back. From this perspective, power to the people would be awesome! Actually, the people would be in your rear view mirror!

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 09 Sep 2002 8:41

I wrote a very long answer to this but deleted it and decided to button my lip.

If you are set on a V10 go the procharger route. It will make more power than the car could ever handle and would be streetable as well.

Look up http://www.procharger.com as it makes interesting reading.

by **Kane McKain (Challenger_x** » 09 Sep 2002 19:23

Thanks for the advice thus far. I talked to the mechanic builing the engine system for me and he is positive it will work. However Life's unexpected expenses took a big wet bite out of my •••. So I'm going to put a PO box number and ask ANY and EVERYBODY to donate $1 to the project, perhaps the fellow Challenger fans can help out. Thanks agai for the advice.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 09 Sep 2002 19:55

I am sure it will work but how well? Not very well would be the answer. But keep dreaming.

by **Kane McKain (Challenger_x** » 09 Sep 2002 22:06

Okay Dave-R, you seem to speak alot but say nothing. The engine will fit, all relevant parts can be mated or crafted. Keep in mind few thought NOS was anything but suicidal when it was introduced, even though or P-51's had enjoyed great succes with them in Europe and it was these millitary scientists who advised NOS be used in cars. The principle behid th muscle cars was power, bigger engine usually equals more power, more pistons usually means more acceleration. If you choose to instead squeeze as muh power as you can from a smaller engine, and not make any bold steps to a new idea you are no better than the rice burners common to the highschools now; who couldn't tell the differance between a piston and a head.I came to this board seeking help, if you cannot offer a logical reason behind you're statements please reserve the messge space for someone who actually makes relevant responses.

by **Kane McKain (Challenger_x** » 09 Sep 2002 22:11

Okay perhaps the statement was a bit harsh when dealing with Uncle Sam one is rarely in a good mood afterwards, but please give a reason for what you are saying, to teach without instruction is only to babble.

by **Kane McKain (Challenger_x** » 09 Sep 2002 22:25

and c'mon you can't tell me 2000rwhp isn't tempting to go for if not all possible. (Or I may just be insane) but considering it's purely a race car that makea a differance in utility.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 10 Sep 2002 9:14

Don't get me wrong. It would be a neat power plant. I just don't think it will work the way you think.

Well a lot does depend on the final use of the car. You say this is to be a race car only yes?

OK that narrows it down a little.

What kind of race car? Dragster I hope? Can't think of any other use for it in racing. No class for it.

What class in Drag racing are you going for? Is there a class that a car like this would fit into?
Pointless building it if there is no class for it there either.

People have tried turbos on American V8s for years. There have even been a few top fuel rails turbocharged. They never ran well. Turbos (and we are talking petrol here) work well on small displacement, high rpm engines with a very narrow, high power band. That is not the sort of engine you are building.

To try and broaden the power band people have tried two odd sized turbos. A smaller one for lower rpms and a bigger one for top end. This has never worked very well either and is very complex.

Heat is the next biggest worry. Heat in the intake charge is a big no no. One turbo generates a huge amount of heat. Four will make it a BIG problem. You could get around it with a well designed intercooler though. With a lot of luck.

Which brings me to the next question. Why four turos? Do you think one would not create enough pressure in the cylinders? Or is it just easier to fit four smaller turbos around the V10 exhaust system? Law of diminishing returns I would think.

What sort of static compression ratio were you thinking of and what sort of boost level? I assume you must be thinking of using a race fuel of some sort?

Next is the cost. This project will cost a lot of money and not work as well as a smaller V8 with a single or double boost system. So why do it?

You want 2000+hp at the rear wheels? Fine. Go see Ray Barton. He will build you a hemi with that sort of power or more for a lot less than this engine would cost.

Hell. With these prochargers there are kids out there now running in the 6s with 5.0L Mustangs. I kid you not.

So in a nutshell. I think it would be a cool engine. BUT I think you would have BIG problems getting it to work well and it would be cheaper and easier to stick a procharged/intercooled/injected hemi in there instead. A mate of mine has a Barton Hemi that puts out 1500hp on pump gas with no form of boost at all.

If you are determined to prove me wrong you go ahead and do it. I would be delighted for you to prove me wrong. We all have dreams and if you have the money and energy to chase that dream then go for it. Then come back here with the photos and timing slips and stick them down my throat!

by **Kane McKain (Challenger_x** » 10 Sep 2002 19:57

I appreciate you're input; I will look into the Barton Hemi any more info would be useful. As far as te quad turbos, I hve an intercooler design that could keep it cool, this car is ment for open drags (Don't now if you'refamiliar with them or not not veryone uses them, any vhicle, any class, racers decide spoils. Though if the Baton with a procharger will out perform it I will go that road

by **Henry (Henry)** » 11 Sep 2002 6:44

Go www.raybarton.com for starters. Should give you all you need. I have heard that Ray is not cheap but the best aren't.

I get the feeling that you could spend too long in developing the Quad T set up instead of winning races.

Barton Hemi's are tried & tested & should get you where you want to go from day one. He has a very good reputation.

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 11 Sep 2002 15:51

My feeling is that it would take someone with years of experiance in turbocharging engines to get this to work well at all. And to get it to work well for drag racing would be something else never done before.

by **Alex (Alex)** » 11 Sep 2002 16:12

For my two pence worth I think Dave is correct in everything he has said.

I have worked with multi turbo'd engines for years and it is not easy to do, there is the problem of phasing the turbos, so they come in and go out at exactly the samr time, this is not easy, you may think that two turbo's of the same design work the same, they won't, setting up the waste gates is a drama, how are you going to modulate the boost? what management system are you going to use? you need a method of increasing the fuel relitive to boost pressure, usually using a m.a.p. sensor. using several turbo's is a great way of bringing the boost in early, as you can use small turbo's that react far faster hence less lag, there is a guy over here who has a Viper running twin turbo's already and I believe Hennesey has gone the turbo route as well, but 2K h.p.?? I doubt it, both the cars mentioned make around 800 r.w.h.p.,you can bolt 10 turbos on, but they will still produce the same boost as one, the turbo will make as much boost as it can flow, 1 turbo can make upwards of 30 p.s.i. on it's own, but no engine will take it, the best you can really hope for with a full prepped engine, and I mean O ringed block, the works is gonna be 20 or so p.s.i., and then you have to consider the heads, they wont be able to move this much air, you will have to have a custom cam etc and a programmable e.c.u. someone who knows how to dial it in and around 200 hours on the dyno to get it right, about which time, it will be ready to be re-built and start again.

I used to work on cars like this all the time and ran a dyno, I saw so many dropped faces of guys who hadf spent thousands on engines like this that were "guaranteed" to work and gave terrible results!

Go with Barton, his work is awesome, I have seen and worked on motors he has built and they are quite simply the finest engines on the planet, the workmanship and attention to detail far outways the cost, and they will last, tell them what you want and they will build the motor to your specs and give you a true dyno figure at the end

Sorry about the spelling etc, but I feel like s*#t

by **Dave-R (Roppa440)** » 11 Sep 2002 16:50

Thanks for that Alex. I have nether the experience or knowledge to be able to forward an argument as eloquent as that. And I am not surprised you feel like ••••. In fact I am surprised you are home already. Glad you made it out the other side ok man. I hope you have a cool scar to show us?! Take it easy and get well soon.

by **Alex (Alex)** » 11 Sep 2002 17:09

Idles a bit more stable now Dave, thanks, let you know how I get on.....

by **Henry (Henry)** » 11 Sep 2002 17:29

Alex
Didn't realise you were going for it so soon
Take care!!!!!!!

by **Kane McKain (Challenger_x** » 11 Sep 2002 22:58

I apprciate the info guys, I'll check into Ray Barton, I'm sre mating an engine such as that with a procharger would be impressive indeed.

by **Christer (Christer)** » 24 Sep 2002 14:25

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/9157/ may give some information about a V10 swap.
(´71 Cuda conv. with a V10)