The Dodge Challenger Message Board

It's going slowly Pat, just sorted the oil pick up clearance and ready to start ring grinding.
I love that job

Ade i got my self one of these from Santa 3 years ago for that purpose ! Realy handy and it makes the work so mutch easyer but an expesive one

I started up the mule today and adjusted the fuel level in the carbs and did some adjusting on the linkage and for now i could get the lamda valeu on idel to 14-15 by having the mixure scews about 1/2-3/4 out in the center carb but i barely could close the center carb to get the 900 rpm idel so i surpekt that the outer carbs needs to be closed a very tad (littel) to get it more corekt but the sound on the engine reply whas realy snappy so im exsited to continue the adjustin ! Adjusting the fuel level was a night mare on these becas they are realy sencetive.....

Sounds good Pat, have you run it under load to see what the response is like?

Hey Ade, No so far no road test becas i whant to have the ballance right first on idel so i will try to close up the outboard carbs a littel and reset idel circut to a good lamda reading AND at the moment it is raining around were i live and it will probably not end untill late this weekend but bare whit me i will do the road test even if the air cleaner isent done !

Sounds promising.

Hi Dave ! Yes and i hope to have more to tell next week if it stop´s raining becas making a road test whit water on the street is just redicilus...........

Here is the next episode ! I could come out on the road and do a first test run and al whas well on the center carb as far as the jeting on that one so cruise mode whas whit A/F ratio around 15 so thats pretty nice but i put in 80 to 84 jets in the outer carbs when i put them together and that whas way to ritch and then i broke the lamda sensor becas of a road bump..... But i whent back on the jeting of the out board carbs down to 70-74 insted and whas abel to do one more test run before the rain came back and i put in my old lamda guage/sensor pkg that isent the broad band kind just to see how it reacted but the lamps are al ower the place and no numbers but how ever it look´t more promesing and man the throttel response is good so i surpect that the anular boosters realy give a better blend and signal I had to ditch the big float valve i put in becas they couldent hold back the fuel presiure so i put back the stock one again but that whas yesteray when i gave up on trying to get the fuel lever were i whanted it ! A good friend of mine had a lamda sensor that i could borrow of him so i pict that up after the last test run so hopefully i can get numbers again soone to post for the curius once here !? To sum it up after today im pretty happy but not over the broken sensor that is expesive

Sounds like your pretty much there Pat, just a little fine tuning once you put a wide band sensor back in.
What AFR's were you aiming for?
I would've expected 15:1 to be a little lean for cruise?
I generally got my best results with around 13:1 for highway cruising and 14:1 for very light throttle, low speed driving. I aimed for about low 12's readings under full load, like at the strip.
I'm taking the Edelbrock 750 off this week and fitting an 850 Speed Demon I got in the garage, I'm off up to the drag strip at Stratfotd upon Avon in a couple weeks so I'd like to try it out.

Keep up the good work Pat, I'm ordering an aluminium Sixpack intake from Summit in a few weeks

Yes you want JUST on the lean side of max manifold vacuum at idle in gear (if automatic) no matter what the idle mixture may read. 13:1 at cruise for sure.

At full load it may need to be very rich indeed. Like 10:1 or richer. This is why it is best to jet the secondaries fir best MPH on the strip.

Adrian Worman wrote:Sounds like your pretty much there Pat, just a little fine tuning once you put a wide band sensor back in.
What AFR's were you aiming for?
I would've expected 15:1 to be a little lean for cruise?
I generally got my best results with around 13:1 for highway cruising and 14:1 for very light throttle, low speed driving. I aimed for about low 12's readings under full load, like at the strip.
I'm taking the Edelbrock 750 off this week and fitting an 850 Speed Demon I got in the garage, I'm off up to the drag strip at Stratfotd upon Avon in a couple weeks so I'd like to try it out.

Keep up the good work Pat, I'm ordering an aluminium Sixpack intake from Summit in a few weeks

Ade
14-15:1 on a flat road in cruising mode is what you should have and real load whit al carbs open´should not be ritcher than 12,5-13:1 or you only flush the piston rings to mutch and as far as the acc pump nozzel zice it would have to be done like Dave say on the track whit a time slip on every run. I have about 15:1 on idel and aroud 14-15:1 in cruise mode on the center carb up to about when the outboard carbs barely open then im in the dark on what they will give whit the new jet zice but there i gues i should try to have it at about 13:1 when they open and remember this is on a flat road and just the normal load whit fixed pedal and no pumping on the throttel !

I found tuning for just a fraction over 13:1 gave me best manifold vacuum at cruise. Which is an indication the engine is burning more efficiently and making more power.

They used to say 12.5:1 was the mixture for best power but fuel is a different animal these days.

Sorry for the delay on updates but rain is still an issue for me so i have been on the air cleaner and 5 hours of making cnc progam and milling did this ! Im going to try out this low profile KN filter and see if the engine will make it as far as the A/F ratio and if so im gona stick whit that for clearence and i dont have the time to make the lid until late next week and im considering doing that in a alu plate of two piceses and do some welding for it to match the vale covers but i havent made my mind up yet ! Dave i wouldent jet up an street engine to a cruise mode of 13:1 and flush my piston rings just to get the largest amount of vacume and even if it is like you say what do you need horse power for in a cruise mode but thanks for shareing your experience as i do apriciate al i can learn good or bad Sorry for the bad qualety of the pic but i have a darn cold and im shaking a bit !

Excellent fabrication Pat, I'm impressed

Adrian Worman wrote:Excellent fabrication Pat, I'm impressed

Ade thanks for the kind words but dont be becas its my trade to work and manufacture steel tools for the
plastic mould industy so its not sutch a big deal and i stand in those machines al the time so i raley need
the cad/cam option as i build the programs by the machines from the drawings

I am really sure that filter will not flow enough even for a stock 440.

dave-r wrote:I am really sure that filter will not flow enough even for a stock 440.

Dave i have been told that the BG´S carbs i found dident flow for more that a 383 would need at tops and they were so wrong and im glad i dident just drop them there and then becas they flow more than the stock carbs al together ! This filter element as a paper issue back in 67 were used in 427 Ford engines and remember that whas not a hi flow material they used. Ive done alot of work on race track cars and there among a V8 Star that use a LS 2 engine that pruduce 540 hp and that filter element have less surface than mine.

K&N themselves suggest flow is 6 cfm per square inch of their filter material before flow resistance starts.

dave-r wrote:K&N themselves suggest flow is 6 cfm per square inch of their filter material before flow resistance starts.

So then if you have a flow of about 900 cfm on a hot 440 Six pack runing on full throttel you would need 150 square inch of filter material that i surspekt a stock zice filter wouldent cover Im not saying that im sertain that this will work but first of al i never rev my engine more than 6000rpm so a safe out at 5500 rpm at the moment whit the limiter but how ever i will mesiure if i have any large amount of vacume in the filter later on and i gues the A/F ratio also will tell the tale as i will try whit and whit out filter when im satifyed whit the jeting of the carbs !

Did you know that there still are old grumpy fellows out there that beleve that 20W50 is the only mineral engine oil that will protekt there engines and there still runing ther cams flat.....

If i do my maths propr I get a surface area of 132" on a 14"X3" filterelement so it ain't that far off Pat.

Adrian Worman wrote:If i do my maths propr I get a surface area of 132" on a 14"X3" filterelement so it ain't that far off Pat.

Ade how are you calulating ? I whas of the impresion that whe are talking about the filter elements surface opening !?
The stock replacement KN filter for sixpack is 1 1/2 in hight !?

If the 132 is corektly calulated based on what ever the flow then would be good for 792 cfm.

There is an KN filter that is 3 inch high also that have the same zice as mine but im afraid that the hood
will hit the filter then but i will mesiure it later when the cold wares of

Take a std size aftermarket filter element at 14" diameter X 3" high.
A 14" diameter multiplied by 3.142 (Pi) equates to a circumference of a fraction under 44".
Multiply 44" by 3 (the height of the element in inches) equates to a fraction under 132" total surface area.
At the quoted 6 cfm per sq inch of filter that would be 792 cfm.

I calculated a stock size K&N six pack oval air filter was 700cfm.

viewtopic.php?p=26883#p26883

So I went for a 3" tall version on my car which worked out at about 1000cfm.

Now the question is, will it in reality flow more than that depending on how much vacuum is applied?
I don't know.

But I do know that at WOT with that bigger filter on I only had about 1" of manifold vacuum. So the engine wasn't having any problems getting enough air thats for sure.

I do know that I tried a filter that size you have there in a similar billet filter housing and it pulled the car rich. I wish I had measured manifold vacuum at that time but I could tell it was restrictive with poor airflow because the lid is too close to the tops of the carbs.

dave-r wrote:I do know that I tried a filter that size you have there in a similar billet filter housing and it pulled the car rich. I wish I had measured manifold vacuum at that time but I could tell it was restrictive with poor airflow because the lid is too close to the tops of the carbs.

Now whe are talking some sence Dave becas what realy have to be put in to the equation is the clearens in
betven the lid and the carbs venturi becas of the carb pulse but of corse the real opening area of the filter will have to put in to consideration to ! But if whe look at my exampel of the LS 2 engine whit 540 hp reving 6500 rpm thru an filter element that have an area of about 55 square inch and this is an fact not some guide line some guy on K&N made up after smokeing some strong stuff the night before What im trying to learn you guys is that you need to have an open mind like guys before us had Smoke for one that im inprest
of becas any thing can be done you just have to learn how to do it and you dont learn buy sitting behind a desk whit a calulator and i have had a lot done and learnd so far and im not gona quit as long as im kicking As i said before im not shore of this filter but im going to find out and if it dosent work and i do have the hood clearence i will probably glue one more filter element on top of the one i have to dubbel the area of the element becas a 3 inch must be to high for my bulge hood but i will look in to that when im better !

You know the old saying, 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'

You machined off the air horns tho didn't you Dave and Pat?
That's gotta be worth some flow?

Yeah I had to fabricate a sheet metal lid for my 3" filter and also cut a section out of the bracing under the hood bulge to clear. Although I was also using a thick insulator between the carbs and intake.

Adrian Worman wrote:You know the old saying, 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'

You machined off the air horns tho didn't you Dave and Pat?
That's gotta be worth some flow?

One of the first things I did with the carbs when I got them Ade. If by "machining" you mean "4-inch angle grinder".

[quote="Adrian Worman"]You know the old saying, 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'


So true Ade !

I whent out and mesiured the clearence form the venuri opening surface and up to the top of the filter element on my new unit and there is 59mm and the stock air clener is about 34mm and about 15mm in the lid so a stock air cleaner have almost 2 inch of clearens for the carb pulse and the new unit will beat that even whit a flat lid. Lets end this discution here and now becas i dont whant to argue on speculations and just let us see the results when im done insted.

I'm really considering droppin the iron sixpack manifold and new carbs I got onto my 440 for the summer.
I've got an Eddy Performer dual plane and 750 carb on there now, is the iron sixpack manifold cast any different to the Eddy aluminium one? I know the motor doesn't care what material it is but I wanted to know if it will flow any less? Still got iron heads on.