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Looking for ebody k-frame conversion. Need help!
by stock car man » 07 Aug 2004 4:16
I am looking to put a tubular k frame conversion kit in my 73 Challenger. I was wondering if any of you might be able to steer me in good direction. I am looking for something with a steering rack, coil-overs and tubular control arms. I would also like to hear from people who have done one of these conversions in a Mopar. Maybe have any tips? Thanks for any help.
- stock car man
by dave-r » 07 Aug 2004 11:02
As discussed yesterday in another thread you basically have two choices that I know of.
The first was Magnumforce.
( http://magnumforce.com/store4/magnumforce_kmember.htm )
The trouble with their conversion is that they use the stock upper shock mount for the coil-overs. This shock mount in the inner fender was never intended to take the full weight of the car. As a result it is unsafe and I have heard of some cars collapsing on the track.
The other (and better) conversion is the AlterKtion conversion.
http://www.bigblockdart.com/alterktion/index.shtml
This is MUCH stronger and ideal for drag racing. The main advantage (and reason for development) is to make life a million times easier when it comes to fitting headers in a big block A-body.
Disadvantages are there is no provision for a front sway bar. Anyone that wants to drive a car on the public roads without a front sway bar is MAD. Drag racers like no front sway bar because the car will shift weight to the rear faster without one.
Another (but lesser) concern is that there is nothing to prevent fore and aft wheel movement. On the stock K-frame you have the two diagonal rods that locate the end of the lower control arm to the front of the k-frame? They are there for good reason.
Anyone that has driven a Mopar with worn bushes on the front of this strut knows how bad this makes the car handle. But again on a drag car this is no big deal. As long as the car does not get badly out of shape of course.
Bill's AlteKation does not flex in this way as badly as the stock set-up. In fact i would guess it would flex at least 50% less. Maybe more. However to eliminate this movement completely you would have to fit SOLID suspension bushes and that would kill the ride quality and possibly lead to some other suspension failier.
It could be that Bill has made some provision for this in his design. If he has I would love to hear about it. But looking at the detailed photographs, both on his website and the photographs of one of his kits on a freinds Dart, I can't see anything to reassure me.
Don't get me wrong. I think this is a very good kit for a mainly Drag use big block A-body. If I was building a B or RB powered Dart for track action I would use one of these kits myself. However I do like to DRIVE my cars quite fast on public roads. I also like to think that in an emergency I would be able to brake and/or steer around anything in my way. I doubt that would be the case with any of these conversions I have seen so far.
Now the next question. Why do this on a Challenger?
There is NO good reason to fit either of these kits to a Challenger. The only advantage is that they give you R&P steering. I agree that R&P steering would have a BIG advantage over the stock Mopar unit. But any advantage gained in steering response has been taken away with lack of suspension control. So you are no better off.
The kits ARE lighter than the stock set-up. But there are better and SAFER ways to loose weight IMO.
The first was Magnumforce.
( http://magnumforce.com/store4/magnumforce_kmember.htm )
The trouble with their conversion is that they use the stock upper shock mount for the coil-overs. This shock mount in the inner fender was never intended to take the full weight of the car. As a result it is unsafe and I have heard of some cars collapsing on the track.
The other (and better) conversion is the AlterKtion conversion.
http://www.bigblockdart.com/alterktion/index.shtml
This is MUCH stronger and ideal for drag racing. The main advantage (and reason for development) is to make life a million times easier when it comes to fitting headers in a big block A-body.
Disadvantages are there is no provision for a front sway bar. Anyone that wants to drive a car on the public roads without a front sway bar is MAD. Drag racers like no front sway bar because the car will shift weight to the rear faster without one.
Another (but lesser) concern is that there is nothing to prevent fore and aft wheel movement. On the stock K-frame you have the two diagonal rods that locate the end of the lower control arm to the front of the k-frame? They are there for good reason.
Anyone that has driven a Mopar with worn bushes on the front of this strut knows how bad this makes the car handle. But again on a drag car this is no big deal. As long as the car does not get badly out of shape of course.
Bill's AlteKation does not flex in this way as badly as the stock set-up. In fact i would guess it would flex at least 50% less. Maybe more. However to eliminate this movement completely you would have to fit SOLID suspension bushes and that would kill the ride quality and possibly lead to some other suspension failier.
It could be that Bill has made some provision for this in his design. If he has I would love to hear about it. But looking at the detailed photographs, both on his website and the photographs of one of his kits on a freinds Dart, I can't see anything to reassure me.
Don't get me wrong. I think this is a very good kit for a mainly Drag use big block A-body. If I was building a B or RB powered Dart for track action I would use one of these kits myself. However I do like to DRIVE my cars quite fast on public roads. I also like to think that in an emergency I would be able to brake and/or steer around anything in my way. I doubt that would be the case with any of these conversions I have seen so far.
Now the next question. Why do this on a Challenger?
There is NO good reason to fit either of these kits to a Challenger. The only advantage is that they give you R&P steering. I agree that R&P steering would have a BIG advantage over the stock Mopar unit. But any advantage gained in steering response has been taken away with lack of suspension control. So you are no better off.
The kits ARE lighter than the stock set-up. But there are better and SAFER ways to loose weight IMO.
-
dave-r - Grumpy Old Man
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Re: Looking for ebody k-frame conversion. Need help!
by ONEBADHEMI » 07 Aug 2004 15:06
stock car man wrote:I am looking to put a tubular k frame conversion kit in my 73 Challenger. I was wondering if any of you might be able to steer me in good direction. I am looking for something with a steering rack, coil-overs and tubular control arms. I would also like to hear from people who have done one of these conversions in a Mopar. Maybe have any tips? Thanks for any help.
There is also http://www.dareracing.com/kmember.html
If I were you I would contact all three of these companys with all your Q's. Then you can come up with the application that will fit your needs.
If you would like to know more on the Alterkation system from a customers stand point I would be glad to talk. I did some upgrades to my Alterkation. so if you did purchase that one I would be willing to help you threw email and pics!
Let us know what you decide.
Dave
Last edited by ONEBADHEMI on 07 Aug 2004 23:08, edited 1 time in total.
- ONEBADHEMI
-
dave-r - Grumpy Old Man
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Re: Looking for ebody k-frame conversion. Need help!
by dave-r » 07 Aug 2004 18:04
ONEBADHEMI wrote:There is also http://www.dareracing.com/kmember.html
Now that one is interesting. It uses the stock suspension (not a bad thing at all) and includes a strut from the LCA to control that movement I was on about.
It could be possible to fit a sway bar too by the look of it??
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dave-r - Grumpy Old Man
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by dave-r » 07 Aug 2004 18:12
Just read this in his FAQ section.
"Can I drive this on the street? I prefer that you did not. This is designed as a race piece, just as many wheels and tires are for competition use only. My K-members are designed to withstand a 3600 pound launch coming down hard from a wheel stand, but I would not like to see it trying to dodge the pot holes in the city streets. I will not sell to anyone that states their intention of street driving.
"Can I drive this on the street? I prefer that you did not. This is designed as a race piece, just as many wheels and tires are for competition use only. My K-members are designed to withstand a 3600 pound launch coming down hard from a wheel stand, but I would not like to see it trying to dodge the pot holes in the city streets. I will not sell to anyone that states their intention of street driving.
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dave-r - Grumpy Old Man
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- Joined: 12 Oct 2003 21:45
- Location: North of the Tyne, England
by ONEBADHEMI » 08 Aug 2004 3:42
dave-r wrote:Just read this in his FAQ section.
"Can I drive this on the street? I prefer that you did not. This is designed as a race piece, just as many wheels and tires are for competition use only. My K-members are designed to withstand a 3600 pound launch coming down hard from a wheel stand, but I would not like to see it trying to dodge the pot holes in the city streets. I will not sell to anyone that states their intention of street driving.
I know thats what he says but, I have seen alot of them on street cars. Buy Him stating that it releases his liability. All the front suspension manufactures say the same thing!
Personaly I prefure the alterK. over the rest because of the square tubbing instead of the tubuluar tubbing for structural reasons!
It would take very little to adapted a strut to the lca on any of the systems!
Dave
- ONEBADHEMI
by dave-r » 08 Aug 2004 12:17
ONEBADHEMI wrote:Personaly I prefure the alterK. over the rest because of the square tubbing instead of the tubuluar tubbing for structural reasons!
Now I agree with you 100% on that one!
I still feel it is a retrograde step going from torsion bars to coil springs. The Chrysler suspension was the envy of Ford and GM. For good reasons too. Much better spring control and of course much less unsprung weight.
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dave-r - Grumpy Old Man
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by ONEBADHEMI » 08 Aug 2004 16:42
dave-r wrote:Now I agree with you 100% on that one!
Well, at least we can agree on something.
When it comes to coilovers or torsion bars there or pros and cons on both sides. We could sit here all day and never totally agree with eachother.
I' am the kind of guy that likes to look outside the box and not always believe in old technology in the direction of my project!
Dave
- ONEBADHEMI
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